THIS WORLD: Saudi: The Family in Crisis Tx Date: 15th July 2004 This script was made from audio tape � any inaccuracies are due to voices being unclear or inaudible Simon Reeve 2.02 Saudi Arabia is in trouble. Terrorists have carried out a wave of attacks � and brutal killings on western targets. Now ordinary Saudis have become victims As terrorists strike, the ruling Royal Family is facing demands for urgent changes to this secretive and conservative Islamic kingdom Saudi: The Family in Crisis Title Page Simon Reeve 2.44 At the beginning of May, tribal leaders from across the vast Kingdom of Saudi Arabia assembled to meet with their Royal rulers. It was an emergency session called by Crown Prince Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz. Delegate: Your Highness, we condemn these crimes against this country with a single voice. Your Highness, we are pained by these actions that make the skin crawl. Even though they are a small group, they are the sons of this country, the sons of Islam. We don�t understand why our sons would think to harm this country, let alone carry out wanton destruction and killing. Simon Reeve 3.35 The Crown prince�s response � was a promise to continue cracking down on the extremists. Crown Prince : This is a warning that I proclaim from this place, that anyone who is silent, who is withholding information � that person is one of them, an accomplice. From now there will be no mercy � except the mercy of God. Tribesman: We support you, Highness! May God give you victory! Simon Reeve 4.11 Crown Prince Abdullah bin abdul Aziz is the acting ruler of the kingdom�standing in for his brother, the ailing King Fahd. 4.23 The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia came into existence only 70 years ago, when Prince Abdullah�s father brought warring desert tribes together into a modern unified state. 4.38 It is a state run on strict Islamic principles. 4.40 Terror attacks have now intensified pressure on the royals to move faster in bringing modernization to the Kingdom. Reformers say giving ordinary Saudis a say in the running of their country will help to marginalize the militants. 4.57 But � in this deeply devout society - there are many who are suspicious of change. Simon Reeve 5.13 Some members of the ruling Royal Family are getting increasingly anxious about the need to break their authoritarian grip on power. That was the reason one of them invited us to come here to gauge the attitude of the Saudi people to reform and to the extremist attacks. But government minders had been appointed to travel with us so open reporting was going to be difficult. Simon Reeve Nat: �Here we are at Prince Turki�s farm�there�s even a reception committee coming out to see us.� Natsof singing Simon Reeve 6.00 Prince Turki bin Faisal and his youngest son Abdul Aziz own this lush farm and wildlife reserve they have created in the desert. They also own several palaces in the kingdom and property abroad 6.16 Yet their wealth is modest compared to other senior members of the vast royal family who run the state. Many have lined their own pockets at their subject�s expense. Prince Turki, the son of the late King Faisal, was the former head of Saudi intelligence. Now he�s ambassador to London . Today his British counterpart is also visiting the farm. It�s a life of privilege paid for by oil, but this prince believes his privilege comes with a responsibility. Prince Turki: Prince Turki: I and others in the family have been brought up to believe that inasmuch as we bear the title of Prince, that that title is not necessarily an honor inasmuch as it is an obligation to provide service and duty whenever called upon. Simon Reeve 7.15 20 year old, Abdul Aziz showed us around the huge farm. He shares his father�s belief that the ruling family are under an obligation to lead change. Prince Abdel Aziz Prince Abdel Aziz in car: I think changes have to happen because if you want to improve and compete in the modern world we have to open ourselves more and accept some things that maybe some people don�t accept. We should balance modernization and keeping the Islamic heritage. I think we should be in the middle. And that�s what �I mean if you come to religion, religion says that you should be in the middle. You shouldn�t be an extremist. Simon Reeve 7.54 This young Prince is preparing to live a different life to many of his cosseted relatives �he studies political science in London and believes the privileged life is unsustainable. Simon Reeve: How many Princes are there? Prince Abdel-Aziz: A lot. A lot. Almost maybe 4000 or something.... Simon Reeve: 4,000! Prince Abdel-Aziz: Which is Al Saud�s family. Simon Reeve: Do you think it�s possible that so many Princes will keep receiving so much money from the state in the future ? Prince Abdel-Aziz: No, I think one day it�s going to be cut. Simon Reeve: Is that going to provoke problems do you think, or do you think people will accept...? Prince Abdel-Aziz: No, No. People is going to accept it. Especially that you know � we should accept it as a family. Simon Reeve Natsof Prince Turki: Well Bendar has a wildlife preserve � 8.34 A fairer distribution of this kind of wealth is just part of a whole series of political and social reforms now being discussed and supported by Royal family members like Prince Turki. Behind closed doors, over the past year, Crown Prince Abdullah has held unprecedented meetings with clerics and intellectuals. They�ve been discussing a major series of modernisations. Changing the courts, more rights to women, transforming jobs and education �and most radical of all � a small step to democracy. Municipal elections have been promised for this October. In a country with no tradition of the cut and thrust of political debate, even the westernized Prince Turki admits it will be a challenge. Prince Turki: This is something so new to our society that things that you take for granted, like for example a candidate perhaps for a seat insulting another candidate, how is that going to be dealt with in a society where never before has anyone stood in public and insulted somebody else. .Simon Reeve The reformers views aren�t shared by everyone. Saudi society is one of the most conservative in the world � many people actually don�t want dramatic change. 10.07 Bedouin tribesmen still live in the desert in ways that haven�t changed for hundreds of years. Apart that is, from the modern weapons and the occasional sports utility vehicles in the background. 10.21 Saudi Arabia is the spiritual centre of the Islamic world. The holy city of Mecca, the birthplace of the prophet Mohammed, is where 1.3 billion muslims daily turn to in prayer. The Royal Family rule this kingdom but they rulers � but they have always ruled by keeping the country�s powerful Clerics on side. The clerics espouse a very strict form of Islam � derived from the 250 year old teachings of a preacher called Mohammad ibn Abd al-Wahab. (singing natsof) Simon Reeve 10. 58 From the desert sands to the computer rooms of city office blocks everyone stops to pray five times a day. 11.14 Saudi Arabia is a country full of contradictions . Wahabbi teachings say Christians, Jews and even other muslims are heretics. YET icons of American consumerism are everywhere � although men and women are strictly segregated and all businesses � even Macdonald�s - have to close for prayers. This country has already seen more change in the last 30 years than in the previous 13 centuries� �and pious Saudis worry that more change will weaken their religion� 11.52 But royal reformers say you can modernise, without compromising Islam. Prince Turki: The Kingdom must continue on its, on its practice of Islam as defined by the Prophet Mohammed... who when asked to describe what and who Muslims are, he said We Muslims are a people of the middle � no extremes either way. And this point was stressed by the king in his reform programme. Simon Reeve 12.32 But there are extremes. Shortly after our conversation with the Prince the capital was rocked by an explosion. The target this time, was not western ---- but Saudi . A local police headquarters had been destroyed by a car bomb. Simon Reeve PTC: The blast site is just over there. We can�t really get any closer because of our government minders and because the police are very, very jumpy closer. But we can even see from here the damage it�s caused. There�s cars all around that have been really almost destroyed. Even in the building here windows have been blown out. I think it gives you a real sense that SA is now in the front line in the War on Terror. It�s becoming a target for the terrorists. And this is coming as a huge shock to many Saudis. Simon Reeve 13.22 At the King Faisel Specialist Hospital doctors battled to treat the victims� Saudi victims, Muslims�targeted by Muslim extremists. Dr Al-Hazzaa: ��it was a tragedy you know you are here, you are taught to save eyes and here you are unfortunately removing and suturing eyes Dr Al-Hazzaa : It�s mind-boggling. You know, we�re not used to this. All of a sudden we�re sitting here scratching our heads � what�s our next step ? We are as much frustrated as the West also seen from that point. And I think this is something very important to take into consideration but we are learning. Simon Reeve 13.55 Doctor Selwa Al Hazza trained in America, and is one of the very few Saudi women doctors. 14.04 Her generation is the first to be educated - her mother was never taught to read or write. She believes the current state of her country has a direct connection to why these attacks are happening. Dr Al-Hazzaa: When I sit back and I try to look at it from a rational point, it means people are unhappy. No-one would do that unless they were unhappy. I think people here are unhappy because you have to remember our economy isn�t what it was 10 years ago. The rate of the unemployment has risen, so there are a lot of unhappy people out there. The generation now � you have to remember that 75 % of our population are under the age of 20. This is scary. You�re graduating people who can�t find jobs and who can�t get into schools. Simon Reeve 14.50 And it is often the army of bored young men with nothing to do, who are drawn into militant groups. With all the oil money providing a welfare cushion, it is easy to forget that unemployment here is up to 30 per cent. The Saudi population has boomed and while Oil may bring the state cash, it doesn�t supply jobs. In Riyadh the streets are full of bored young men idling the night away, cruising in their cars. So the Royal Family�s reforms propose more privatisation to create more jobs. The situation�s particularly bad for women�only 5 percent of them work. Simon Reeve 15.26 Nahed Taher wants reforms to change that. She�s a senior economist, who graduated in Britain. Here, men and women do not work together � so while her firm is open-plan, she has a separate office. Nahed wants the reforms to expand women�s rights and modernising and diversifying the job markets. Nahed Taher: From an economic point of view: spending 55% of your education budget which is already 30% of GDP � it�s a huge amount for SA � 55% of it is spent of women graduates. So � and then there are only 5% in the working force. This is a waste of money, a waste of human resources, a waste of brains that could really challenge this economy and get it out from the very low growth of around 1.4% for the whole last 20 years. Simon Reeve 16.23 Slow changes are already happening - ten years ago it would have been impossible to find any Saudi women working in business. Prince Amr: Mrs Dinah has been hired to be our chief cartographer, and it will be her task to come up with paper maps based on our data. Simon Reeve 16.41 Mrs Dena is another one of the 5 percent. The firm she works for develops mapping software that might - one day - be used to devise voting wards and electoral rolls. She owes her job to a reform-minded member of the Royal Family, Prince Amr. Prince Amr: Some women who are wealthy don�t need to work. But there are a vast majority of them who are not wealthy, and who need to work. And this is kind of work that is very suitable for a lady. It�s not physically strenuous, and yet it requires a great deal of mental skill and capacity Simon Reeve 17.26 To many Western eyes, women in Saudi are still oppressed. All women are banned from driving. Mothers and daughters are often still hidden away, even within families. Simon Reeve There is no tradition of women openly debating women�s rights and Saudi politics. So it was almost unheard of for us to be invited to speak with young women at this home of a businessman in the city of Jeddah. Most believed Saudi Arabia should change. But slowly. Girl #1 We are a very tribal society. The majority of the people here are tribes. If you want to introduce democracy or anything like that, it�ll just be a bigger mess, at the moment. Girl #2 Democracy is still not that open yet. OK, Yes, I feel that I have the right � it�s coming. But it�s not � not right now. Sometimes I feel frustrated, I want to change and I want to speak up and I want people to hear me�but Girl #1 A lot of people in Saudi Arabia are not ready to vote. They don�t even know how to make decisions Yeah! Simon Reeve None of these young women can date or even play sports � without written permission from a man in their family. They study in segregated classes, pray apart from men and are barred from many professions. And that situation is something older women are also in no hurry to change. Woman #1 And we�re happy the way we are within our own means, within our own abilities, capabilities and so on. And within our own Shariah � our Islam. But, yes, we do need change, and we want change, and we want it. And it doesn�t have to happen now. We�re OK with it. I mean, leave us alone � let us handle our matters on our own, within our own jurisdictions. Woman #2 What is happening today is we�re being bombarded by reform. Of course the world seems to want reform in a year or two. I can�t reform my son in a year. And that�s one individual. What about reforming a whole country. Don�t bombard us anymore with What to do. Because now all we�re doing is spending so much time explaining ourselves to the world that we don�t have enough time to start progressing in our own country. Dr. Al-Hazzaa: People say well you�re behind� They compare us for instance to other parts of the other parts of the I won�t even say arab world � to the Gulf countries � compare us Dubai, Bahrain � why is a woman driving, why is a woman away from the abayah and Saudi Arabia is still in that I still say to them - ... does Bahrain, Dubai , Kuwait talking about the gulf countries that are closest to us, do they have the 2 holiest places in the world from the Muslim point? Dr Al-Hazzaa :: We have millions and millions of people turning to us, 5 times a day. So, as a country with the 2 holiest places � we have to be held at a stricter standard than the neighbouring countries. Dr Al-Hazzaa: Many, many of the females here are happy with the situation. Yes, we would like it to progress faster. I would be lying if I said I didn�t. But it has to be done at our own pace. And it can�t come from the West � and excuse me for the term. It can�t come from our government. It has to come within the females. Once the females want the change, I think it will occur. Simon Reeve 14.54 As we drove in the capital, security forces were on high alert. But for nearly a decade, the Royals have been accused of failing to deal with the extremists in their midst � even of protecting them. Simon Reeve PTC: We�re just coming up to a checkpoint now. We�re in a long queue of cars. The police, security forces and special forces are checking cars very thoroughly. They�re very jumpy at the moment because their colleagues have been shot and killed in several cases. We�ve had a large machine gun pointed directly at us. So it�s a slightly nerve-wracking experience. You don�t want to do anything that will provoke them into opening fire. Because they�ve been given permission to fire on suspicion. Government minder (urgent): Stop! Shut down the camera! Simon Reeve 21.28 Saudi Arabia has heavily guarded compounds full of foreigners needed to run its businesses. This presence, as well as American military bases within the kingdom has caused acute tension between the Royal Family and militants who view the foreigners as infidels. Simon Reeve 8 years ago the killing of 19 American servicemen in a bombing at the Dhahran airbase had general popular support within Saudi Arabia. 22.00 But when recent attacks started to claim Saudi victims too � support began to collapse - according to those close to current militant thinking. Dr Mohsen al-Awajy: Later on the casualties are pure Saudis from the security forces you see�? It means the battle is coming from being between American troops and those militants � to reach the point that from the brother, the man and his brother. Or the man and his cousin you see�which is intolerable by all means. Simon Reeve At a conference on terrorism in Riyadh we came across evidence of how seriously the authorities seem to be taking the threat now that Saudis are being killed. Simon Reeve: This is an announcement in English � the names of 26 suspects wanted by the security authorities. It�s basically a booklet with photos of each of the men and in various states of disguise I suppose. The ministry is offering large sums of money as a reward. 1 million Saudi riyals will be given to anybody for information that leads to arrest of any of these wanted terrorists. 5 millions Saudi rials�that�s a million pounds for information leading to the arrest of a group. And you can see from the names. This is why the Saudi authorities are worried � this is their nationalities � almost all of them are Saudis. Simon Reeve: 23.39 The Saudi Royals have financed thousands of conservative religious schools and mosques around the world. And in order to keep power, the Royal Family has let clerics control religion and education here. They preach the strict state form of Islam, Wahhabism � and believe only their teachings are true to the prophet�s legacy. To them, even other branches of Islam, like Shia�s and Sufi�s are heretics. So thousands of young Saudis have been taught to hate�and for some it�s been a short step from extremist views�to violence. Simon Reeve Prince Turki al Faisal was the former Saudi spy chief. He was involved in a key conflict in the 1980�s that resulted in thousands of those young Saudis turning militant and violent � the Afghan War. And during the 1980�s he also knew a man who was a Saudi hero � but who would turn those militants into the worldwide terror group we now call Al Qaeda. Simon Reeve: Osama bin Laden now leads the war against Prince Turki�s Royal Family. In 1979, the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan. Prince Turki and other Saudis developed a plan to help their western allies expel the communist � godless invaders in their eyes - from a fellow Islamic country. Prince Turki: The Kingdom being a close ally of the US in particular and the West in general, against the Soviets, was extremely alarmed to see a communist regime come into existence in Afghanistan which was traditionally a very Islamic state. Simon Reeve: A massive operation was mounted to support the mujhadeen � the Afghan resistance fighters against the Soviet Army. Prince Turki: It was agreed that this programme would be totally clandestine, with weapons and other support going to the mujahadeen through Pakistan, and financed by SA and the US. Simon Reeve The young Osama bin Laden was among thousands of Saudis who travelled to Afghanistan to fight in one of the decisive struggles of the Cold War. He led a band of volunteers fighting alongside the mujaheedeen. On those battlefields young men were transformed into ideologically militant warriors - for Islam. And when the Soviets were defeated - it was a huge coup for Bin Laden and the radicalized fighters. Prince Turki: That gave him the license to seek to do the same to anybody who, in his view, either perpetrated grievances against Muslims, or affected the interests of Muslims and Islam in general. Simon Reeve They tackled one superpower � they could tackle another perhaps Prince Turki: They could tackle anybody, practically, is what they were saying. Simon Reeve With the Taliban now firmly in control of Aghanistan, Bin Laden set up training camps and tens of thousands of foreign hard- line Muslims came to learn --- and to export, this new violent fundamentalism. Simon Reeve Simon Reeve This man was Osama bin Laden�s best friend. Jamal Khaleffa: Osama, he was very nice person. We became like brothers. We have a love to each other, so he decided to let me to marry his sister. It is something which can�t be refused. Osama Bin Laden and Jamal Khaleefa both went to help the mujahadeen in Afghanistan. Jamal Khaleffa This war gave us the real and the material proof of what we believe, that, if you have the faith, you can do everything and nobody can stop in front of you. We have that believe. We were reading that in the books. We have it in our Islam belief. But in the Afghan, and what happened there, it really gave us this impact, this is what gives Osama the push to do what he is doing now. Simon Reeve: What Jamal is doing now is running a successful fish restaurant. He has been accused of involvement with terrorism, but says he turned his back on his best friend when he realized Bin laden turning against fellow Muslims. Jamal Khaleffa: Those people they have these ideas. Those people they are carrying a thought � not only the West are an enemy � No. All the Muslim, all the Arab countries, the states, the governments, are an enemy. And not an enemy in a political way. No, they are an enemy in a religious way. Since you are not implementing the Islam 100%, and the way they understand it, you are a disbeliever and they have the right to kill you . Simon Reeve: 28.40 Those people, the militants, are now back in Saudi Arabia Driving through Riyadh we come across the aftermath of a police clash with a terrorist cell. Bin Laden�s supporters had been hiding here in this residential neigbourhood. A neighbour had seen the shoot out. Neighbour: He was rpg from upstairs Q: he fired a rocket propelled grenade just to there. What was he firing at..? A: police patrol car Neighbour: (Arabic) There was a round of shots that they fired and it penetrated here and there. Simon Reeve 29.17 The battle had lasted three hours�. Rows of houses on what had been a quiet residential street were riddled with heavy calibre bullet holes. Simon Reeve: Some of them are quite small but clearly its been hit by heavy machine gun as well Simon Reeve: One policeman and one gunman were killed, one was arrested� two got away. Simon Reeve: 29.46 The Saudi population is deeply conservative and religious, but that doesn�t mean those extremists who�ve turned to violence at home are supported. This is Rijal Alma, a traditional town. Many of Osama bin Laden�s September 11th hijackers came from this area. 30.06 After evening prayers village elders told our interpreter that many of those who had been warning about the rise of the militants had been ignored. Elder #1 I feel sad because Islam has been abused. There is an ideological clash between the traditionalists and the extremists. The issue is one of a clash between traditional culture on the one hand and the extremist ideology on the other. Elder #1 An important point: when the intellectuals and thinkers created awareness around this extremism in the media and warned that some people were using religious terminology wrongly, everyone swore at them, and accused them of being against religion and the country. Simon Reeve: While these elders were happy to discuss the real rise in violent extremism here � some of them told us they just didn�t believe Saudi�s could have been responsible for September the 11th. It�s a theory that is widely believed within the Kingdom . Elder #2: There�s a strong belief that what took place in Manhattan could be the product of Mossad and American political enterprise. Because there is no conclusive proof, no one is able to prove that any of the [19] men were responsible. What is being said about these events is being used to tarnish the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Simon Reeve: Many thousands of young Saudi men have become attracted to extreme fundamentalist thinking. Khaled al Ghannami was a liberal young student when a radical cleric at his mosque convinced him to change. Natsof Khaled al Ghannami Thank you for inviting us to your house�.welcome to my house Simon Reeve The cleric who influenced him is now on the government �s most wanted list� accused of being behind the recent attacks. Simon Reeve: What sort of effect is that going to have on people in SA ? Do you think it will turn people against the militants more? Khaled al Ghannami: No� more Saudis are against the people who call themselves the Jihadi�s, because I guess by now they should realize how dangerous they are to the country and to the human lives. Simon Reeve A decade ago Khaled, despite being a devout muslim, began to fear his lifestyle was not 100 per cent true to Islam, and he would therefore die as a sinner Khaled al Ghannami: In 1992 I decided to change my way of living after a lecture from a friend of mine. And this group of religious people that I met gave me a secure � for 10 years I was completely secured. I would sleep every night without fear of death because I was a good true believer who doesn�t listen to music, doesn�t watch movies, doesn�t drink alcohol. And I was ready to die. I was completely clean in that, you know, in my opinion. And that�s what enforced it, I mean � Death was the enforcer. Simon Reeve: But you were a militant Wahhabi essentially... Khaled al Ghannami: It comes like a package. You break the TV�s, you burn all your photographs � we�re talking about childhood photographs � I don�t have childhood photographs anymore. And I did it all. This is what I believe the act of a true believer Thank god its not my nature to be violent � you know I didn�t go that far. But ah�but the mind was violent. I was an extremist in my head. Simon Reeve: 34.29 While a Wahabbi militant, for years Khaled would only read puritanical texts, but when he began to read more widely � more moderate Islamic books - his hard-line began to crumble. Khaled al Ghannami: All of a sudden music is questionable. Maybe it�s not forbidden as what they say. Maybe women, they don�t have to cover their faces. Maybe it�s alright to have a satellite in the house. So it started to break, just one by one. I mean, freedom is a great thing. I mean, it�s your freedom. You do whatever you like with your life. If you want to go to the mosque � go to the mosque. If you want to sit watching a film � you do that. Prayer time �. He says its prayer time and he has to close the store. Simon Reeve: 35. 34 In the last year the Saudi government has finally begun to crack down on clerics like the man who influenced Khaled. 35.47 Recently over 900 imams have been sacked or reeducated. Now its illegal to preach hate filled sermons, but many still do despite the crack down. The House of Saud can�t change what some people think. Simon Reeve 36.12 But the latest extraordinary violence against foreigners and Saudis has shaken even hard-line clerics. 36.20 Dr Mohsen Al Awaji , a Saudi lawyer, is the legal representative for several of the clerics who have been in trouble with the government. 36.30 He introduced us to an imam who was prepared to discuss beliefs that if expressed publicly, would lead to his arrest. But he would only be interviewed without showing his face. Saleh� claimed he and 80 percent of the population still support bin Laden � although he had no proof. But the attacks that had killed Saudis � he did not support. Saleh: First of all I don�t know who killed these people. This action was a mistake, I do not approve. Likewise, we refuse to have any Saudi security person kill any Saudi civilian. Simon Reeve: Am I right in thinking that you support Osama bin Laden�s attacks on America. What then do you think about Osama�s campaign against the House of Saud. against the Saudi government? Saleh: Osama Bin Laden is not a perfect human being. I wish they could put aside their peripheral differences. They should put it aside and face the true enemy. Simon Reeve: What does that mean? Saleh: Anyone in America whether civilian or non civilian that supports the policies of America is a legitimate target. He�s indeed legitimate. Saleh: Our wish for America is what happened in Hiroshima that they are so proud of. Simon Reeve: Saleh�s view, that the extremists have now gone too far in targeting Saudis rather than Americans, is a significant development according to the lawyer, Dr Al Awaji. : Dr Mohsen al-Awajy: Even Mr Saleh and the others are feeling ashamed of these actions now.. Q Really? Dr Mohsen al-Awajy: Absolutely, no doubt about it at all.. But if those militants are targeting you know the American troops, he would be very very very happy I�m sure. Q But as soon as Saudis start to die everything changes? Dr Mohsen al-Awajy Yes�.dramatically changes. Simon Reeve: The Saudi authorities are cracking down on the radical clerics. But there�s also another crackdown underway. This time against intellectuals and human rights activists. We evaded our government minders late at night and travelled to meet with a human rights worker. He told us that even though a reform plan has been openly announced and is being officially discussed, demanding too much change, or demanding that it comes too quickly, can lead to arrest, and detention. Simon Reeve: (off camera) Are you putting yourself in any danger by talking to us? Ibrahim Megadib: I hope not. But based on previous experiences I�ll not be surprised if I�m either questioned or even thrown in jail but I really don�t care. Not anymore. Simon Reeve: Have you been in jail before ? Ibrahim Megadib: Yes, I have been in jail. Yes. Several times. Ibrahim Megadib: They still detain people without judge order, they detain them more than 5 days although it�s not allowed. The people are not subjected to a trial. The trials are not transparent, if they exist and when they exist. Unfortunately people are not, for the majority of the prisoners, they�re not allowed to seek counsel and legal advice. Simon Reeve: 39.54 Ibrahim speaks out, partly because he is a very sick man, and says he has nothing to lose. Ranged against human rights campaigners are a faction of the ruling Royal Family, hard-line Princes led by the head of the all-powerful Interior Ministry, Prince Naif, who controls the police. So it was a tense drive with Ibrahim to the outskirts of the city. (Up soft) Ibrahim Megadib This the first time I�ve been to this place. Ever. 40.21 One of the most famous dissidents is Ali Dimani, a poet, who had expressed pro reform opinions and has been detained by Prince Naif�s police. Ibrahim took us to meet his wife. Fawzia Lawni: Salem awelekom Ibrahim Megadib Great. Great. Simon Reeve: Why was your husband arrested ? Ibrahim Megadib (interpreting): She doesn�t know why her husband was arrested. Actually she couldn�t answer that question for their own daughter � 10 yrs old daughter � when she asked her mother, Why was Dad arrested ? She doesn�t have an answer. Simon Reeve: Why do you suspect he was arrested? Ibrahim Megadib (interpreting): [laugh] She said, she cannot suspect anything. If she suspects she will add another offence against her husband. Simon Reeve: Is your husband a dangerous man ? Do you think he�s a danger to the state of Saudi Arabia? Ibrahim Megadib (interpreting): Certainly not. My husband and his colleagues were not doing anything that will endanger the Kingdom of SA. As a matter of fact, the contrary: through reform they wanted to bridge the relation between the government and the Saudi people. Simon Reeve: Simon Reeve: 41.49 And Khaled al Ghannami, the reformed militant, has also seen a crackdown on those who have deviated -- even slightly� from Saudi hardline doctrine. Khaled al Ghanammi: (cappuccino please) 42.01 Khaled�s friend, another reformed militant and a teacher in a boy�s high school, was recently arrested after being setup by his own colleagues and students. Khaled al Ghanammi: He was accused of being an infidel, and he was accused of, that he is against Islam. Just because he said, he just told the students a few of the things that they are not used to. He talked about love and marriage, and he said love is a different thing from the marriage. So he was accused of encouraging premarital sex. Simon Reeve: And what happened to him ? Khaled al Ghanammi: He was fired. He was fired, and he was sent to jail for 3 years, and 300 lashes. Simon Reeve: When did that happen ? Khaled al Ghanammi: A month ago. And I wrote an article about it. Simon Reeve: One month ago? Do you not fear the same consequences for yourself ? Khaled al Ghanammi: Yes I do. I�m concerned about that. And I�m also concerned that these students � they�re going to be extremists themselves. Waiter: Excuse me, sir, we�re going to close for prayers, sir. Simon: Alright, up we go. Simon Reeve: 43.29 Khaled has received threats himself. 43. 35 He has written articles blaming hardline Islamic teachings for the bomb in Riyahd which claimed Saudi lives. Khaled al Ghanammi: . A lot of people were so angry. I received 100s of calls on my mobile from people I didn�t know. They were very angry and they wanted to talk to me at my school. Simon Reeve: Did you receive any threats? Khaled al Ghanammi: Yes. On the email. I still have them on the email. Simon Reeve: What were they threatening you with. Khaled al Ghanammi: Threatening with death Simon Reeve: 44.07 So those who oppose extremism and hard-line views - who take a stand against the extreme interpretations of Islam, are also being persecuted. One of the most outspoken and modern of the Royals I had met during our visit was the IT businessman Prince Amr. Didn�t the detention of opponents undermine his families claims to be changing? Simon Reeve: Simon Reeve (Off camera:) You say that the Old Guard is handing power over to the New, to the Young � but where is the evidence of that? We see writers being thrown in jail? Prince Amr al Faisal: These are � I don�t put too much � these are, if you like � like fire- crackers. It�s not serious. It�s not a - meaning that the process is being derailed or changed Simon Reeve: But it�s serious for those individuals who are brave enough to try and test the water to see where the standards, where the boundaries are Prince Amr al Faisal: This is a necessary part of change. This is the way it is. This is the dynamic of change. Simon Reeve: People put into jail? Prince Amr al Faisal: Some people are put into jail for what they believe in. And if they believe strongly enough, it should be worthwhile that they go to jail for it. Simon Reeve: So they have to be martyrs for the benefit of the country ? Prince Amr al Faisal: I think that it is necessary, Yes. Simon Reeve: 45.22 This apparent juggling act is the great challenge to the Royal Family�s reform process. How to respond to demands for change, while not offending pious Saudis who are afraid of straying too far from an Islamic state � while at the same time keeping the violent extremists in check. In such a conservative kingdom, there will be a backlash against the Royal Family if this process is rushed or seen to be driven by a western agenda. Prince Turki is well aware of the pitfalls. Prince Turki: When you take on reform you�re bound to make decisions, and when you make decisions you�re bound to offend whoever is going to offended by those decisions. Simon Reeve 46.06 Militants struck last month with a new level of brutality� using a modern tool, the internet, to spread news of their beheading of an American worker. Simon Reeve: 46.18 Foreigners in the kingdom do not believe the state can protect them. Many of them are fleeing --- leading to more and louder calls for even faster reforms. But despite the terrorist attacks, most Saudis do not want their government to over-react. They are open to change, but not at a pace forced by the recent bloody events. Dr Salwa Al-Hazzaa: �we want this to be an evolution and not a revolution, we are smart people, we hold a big responsibility on our shoulders. and we will se that it doesn�t fail because again we are doing it within the system, within the pace that the Saudi people, I wont say the government or the west, �actually requires. Simon Reeve: 47.00 Over recent weeks the government crackdown on terrorism has had some success. Hardline preachers once praised by bin Laden now denounce the extremists. And terrorists including the Saudi head of al qaeda have been captured or killed or given themselves up. Dr Mohsen al Awajyi: They are being hunted and being captured and imprisoned and the Saudi people are supporting their government in this action only because the justification is so clear. Everyone wants to live in peace, you see, and they are being cornered, you know, from time to time and I�m quite convinced they will not last a long time. But they pose very miserable headache for both government and Saudi society. Simon Reeve: Is this �headache� distracting the Royals from the process of reform? Back in his London embassy Prince Turki was adamant: Simon Reeve: Are the security problems that are affecting the kingdom going to derail or jeopardise in any way the reform programme that is underway? Prince Turki: Absolutely not! Out of 6 terror cells that have been identified in Saudi Arabi, five have already been disbanded either through killings or arrests and so on. The 6th one is in the process of being disbanded and the recent killing of Elmukran and his cohorts is a measure of that success. In the 2 holy mosques in Mecca and Medina every Friday there is mention of Islam�s stand against terrorism, against bigotry and for the acceptance of the other whoever and whatever it may be. So all of these points, this reform programme is being put in practice while we�ve been undergoing this terrorist campaign. Simon Reeve: Support for the extremists is declining now they have killed other muslims. If the Royal family�s crackdown is supported, and the people of this holy kingdom turn aggressively against al qaeda � sympathy for extremism across the rest of the Islamic world could also collapse. Jamal Khaleffa: If they have the power, they will not stop. Those people they will go to the end. What those people carried in their head, it�s absolutely dangerous� absolutely dangerous for the people and for the religion and for everybody. So that�s why I�m saying that�I can see. They yes� they will go to the end. They don�t afraid, they don�t care they just do what they have in their mind. Whatever it is, right or wrong�they believe its right so they will go on it. So they will go to the end� but hopefully they will not have the power. Simon Reeve: 50.02 Most Saudis say they dont think the terrorists will win Saudi Arabia IS starting to change. The challenge for the royal family is making that change at a pace that the cautious Saudis will accept. Not driven by fear of attack � nor by demands from outside the Kingdom. Voice Over You can comment on tonight�s programme by visiting our web site at: End credits list Reporter: Simon Reeve Music: Robert Hartshorne Camera: Vacha Boulgharian Jonathan Young Editor: Ashley Smith Online Editor: Boyd Nagel Production Assistant: Davina Weitowitz Production Manager: Sally Smith Production Manager (BBC): Jane Willey Archive: Nick Dodd Post Production Producer: Cliff Bestall Produced and Directed by Anthony Makin Series Editor: Karen O�Connor 8