Ouch Talk Show #48 – February 2010
bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast

Presented by Mat Fraser and Liz Carr

The Ouch Podcast is a download from the BBC. For more information, and our terms of use, go to bbc.co.uk/ouch.

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O U C H spells Ouch]

LIZ	Hello, I’m Liz Carr and back with me my regular co-host Mat Fraser. 	
MAT	Hi there Liz, hi there listeners it’s great to be back. 	
LIZ	It’s good to have you back. 	
MAT	On talk show number 	
LIz & MAT	48!	
LIZ	Why is that magical? 	
MAT	It’s magical for two reasons.	
LIZ	Oh okay. 	
MAT	One because I’m 48. 	
LIZ	Oh happy birthday!	
MAT	Thank you Liz, thank you. 	
LIZ	You’ve just had a birthday. 	
MAT	I have four/five days ago. 	
LIZ	You're looking good on it. 	
MAT	And also those of you that are good at maths will know that 12 x 4 equals 48 meaning that we, the Talk Show, are 4 years old today.	
LIZ	Oh my goodness. Remember we were only going to be here for about six months and we’ve survived. 	
MAT	It was an experiment that went horribly wrong. 	
LIZ	And people say we’ve got shortened life spans eh? Not on Ouch. 	
MAT	No. 	
LIZ	Eh, eh? So on the show today travel junkie and equality dude, yes, Simon Minty’s back once more with his pick from the past month’s big news stories. 	
MAT	And in 20 minutes
[Playing clip]
I just want to make my friends and family proud as well. I just really want them to be like that’s amazing because they will tell me if it’s crap.
That is Simone Milani she join us to chat about the new BBC3 reality show Dancing On Wheels.  	
LIZ	Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable our telephone quiz game is back with a very appropriately named contestant. 	
MAT	Plus the usual chatter and this. 
[Playing music]
Oh wow, erm, that’s 14 year old blind jazz man Rocco Fiorentino he’ll be talking about her visit to Seseme Street and finishing the show with some music. 	
LIZ	I’m quite emotional now. 	
MAT	I’ve got a lump in my throat. Well I think that’s what it is. 	
LIZ	It’s goitre. We’re on the web at bbc.co.uk/ouch where you can read regular interviews, play quizzes, talk on our message board and more. You’ll also find every talk show we’ve ever made - there’s almost 50, well actually 48 as we know to choose from but why not just listen to them all. 	
MAT	They’re all fantastic. 	
LIZ	Couldn’t pick a favourite could you? 	
MAT	No. I think though that, for me interview-wise, I’m never going to top either Blunkett or Jeremy Beadle. 	
LIZ	Ah last month’s Sue Townsend was pretty hard to beat. 	
MAT	I know. 	
LIZ	You did miss a fantastic... 	
MAT	I certainly did. 	
LIZ	... amazing woman, brilliant. 	
MAT	I didn’t even know she was disabled sorry. 	
LIZ	No but a lot of us didn’t, to be honest. 	
MAT	Was she in denial? 	
LIZ	No, no, no we just didn’t know, she’s very quiet about it but brilliant. So it’s lovely to have you back. 	
MAT	Thank you so much, Liz. I’m, as usual, suffering my usual first day back culture shock. 	
LIZ	Of course.	
MAT	I need to tell you this.	
LIZ	Oh okay. 	
MAT	Do you remember Surprise Surprise with Cilla Black? 	
LIZ	Cilla.	
MAT	Oh yeah. [singing] Surprise Surprise! 	
LIZ	[singing] You’re ((unexpectedly itchy)) between the eyes. 	
MAT	You know the second line. 	
LIZ	Oh no, no. 	
MAT	Anyway so in Julie’s apartment block in Manhattan where I live.	
LIZ	Julie being your girlfriend. 	
MAT	Julie being my girlfriend yeah. Unlike in Britain where everyone has their own washing machine in apartment blocks there’s one big block only laundrette at the bottom. And I live in a rather rich acidic block, and so there’s lots of Hispanic and black maids down at the laundrette. So yesterday, or two days ago, I was folding the laundry with the women who were desperately trying to help and elbowing me out of the way, pulling the laundry out of my hand... 	
LIZ	Not letting you do your own laundry. 	
MAT	No basically not letting me in a kind of weird conspiracy of maids, but what was on telly, because there’s a television in there and Julie doesn't have a telly so I sometimes go down to do the laundry just to watch telly.	
LIZ	She doesn’t have a telly. 	
MAT	No, no she’s an artistic type. 	
LIZ	Wow!	
MAT	And there’s a programme called Tell It To Mori and it’s on every day. And Mori is this guy that has a catalogue of very ill people and it’s called ‘The Incredible Story of Survivors’ “Later in the show we have young Jamie with a fourteen pound facial tumour”. Now this is fed live to a studio audience, right, and they show a picture and on mass they all go, “Awh!” And they say, “But what about Gillian” and then the story of Gillian who worked with her nurse colleagues for two years to raise $200,000 “And here she is now” and he has to produce this bunch of flowers to the basically delivering angel character. 	
LIZ	It’s more like Hearts Of Gold. 	
MAT	It’s like... 	
LIZ	Isn’t it a bit? 	
MAT	... it is like Hearts Of Gold. 	
LIZ	Surprise Surprise meets Hearts Of Gold.	
MAT	But it’s Hearts Of Gold with a cash bonanza because it’s American right where, you know, money is ever the God... 	
LIZ	Of course. 	
MAT	... even more than here. And so then he goes “And we’ve got a little something extra for you” and he basically got his face sort of fixed, even though he still only has half a face but there’s no fleshy tumour on it now, and a set of golf clubs, so everything’s fine hoorah! 	
LIZ	Are you telling me this because... are you secretly watching it and wanting to be on it? 	
MAT	Yeah I want my arms extended. I want to play golf. No I just thought... 	
LIZ	You want a hot tub and arms. 	
MAT	It basically it managed to combine the charity model of disability style Hearts Of Gold thing that we hate, which used to be television of old, with the money god with the celebration of monetary success they’re all things that I suppose we think of the worst parts of American into one programme - Tell It To Mori. 	
LIZ	Well while you’re obviously you were having a good time in America I was having physio for my neck. 	
MAT	Oh no. 	
LIZ	[singing] Your tune. Yeah. No I went to physio for the first time in 20 years right? And I went for my neck and I got into hydro and it was beautiful thirty four degrees the water was right? The physio did nothing about my neck. He just saw me and was like, “Oh let’s get those knees to bend better. Let’s straighten your arms”. I’m like, “No, no, no I’ve been like this for 20 years I’m not trying to cure them.” “No, no, no let... I can get a bit more flexion in your hips.” 	
MAT	And you’re like “Aghh!”	
LIZ	“No, no it’s my neck I can’t turn to look at you, look I’m in pain”. Never he didn’t even duck me in wa--... this neck never even touched the water in the hydro pool. 	
MAT	In the therapeutic hydro water.	
LIZ	No, nobody touched it, nobody looked at it. My knees however I can run upstairs now but that’s not the point. 	
MAT	Wow so hold on so he ignored you. 	
LIZ	Not ignored me, ignored me what I was saying, ignore everything about it. So there you go. And on the inspirational thing before we move on to our wonderful, wonderful emails this month I did a show last night, I did a gig, a stand up gig, and all the other acts, all the other comedians were not disabled and afterwards if you’ve had a good gig then promoters and bookers and people come up and they, you know, book you for another gig and all that. 	
MAT	Yeah. 	
LIZ	So I had a little queue of people I was quite excited, I thought great. 	
MAT	Nice. 	
LIZ	Yeah. They were all together they were from a residential care home and they wanted to see if I’d go and do my set for the staff there and for the residents because I’d inspire them that even somebody like me can achieve something. 	
MAT	Oh God. 	
LIZ	The guy next me had just been offered a £150 gig at a really nice club in Manchester and I get the residential care home gig. 	
MAT	But what can you do because, you know, it’s just turning that... flipping that coin for a second, the residential care home they need gigs just like everyone else right? 	
LIZ	They do. 	
MAT	And the hundred and fifty quid guy he’s not going to do it. 	
LIZ	No it’s true. 	
MAT	So now you're like morally bound to do it. 	
LIZ	No it’s true. I mean I've got nothing wrong in going to care homes... 	
MAT	No, I mean, there’s nothing wrong with it but of course you want the hundred and fifty quid gigs as well right?  	
LIZ	And what I didn’t want is she said, “But if you could just tone it down a little bit.” All I’d be able to do is say my name do you know what I mean. So right emails, enough about us. 	
MAT	Okay so here we’ve got Anthony Chester from Malvern. He’s a TAB a normal or whatever you want to call it who isn’t disabled. “Did some disability modules at Uni because his favourite lecturer was running them.” 	
LIZ	What’s a TAB? 	
MAT	Temporarily Able Bodied I think. 	
LIZ	Okay. 	
MAT	But this is not about any of that. It’s about Avatar the James Cameron thing. 	
LIZ	Ah the biggest rating film. 	
MAT	He went to watch, he says... I know. “I went to Avatar tonight and wondered if any of you had seen it and what you thought of it in terms of disability references.” Now I have seen it it’s on many levels an overwhelmingly brilliant film. 	
LIZ	Okay. 	
MAT	However, I had some severe problems with it. He says, “I was initially sceptical as the ((scully?)) chap seemed to fall for the nasty army guy’s promise of getting his legs back. But then he turned against the nasty leg promising man and so all seemed well especially as I thought the majority of the other disability reference weren’t too ((0:08:45.5?))”	
LIZ	I’m lost now you see because I haven’t seen it. 	
MAT	Well I’m not going to bother giving you the plot because that would take too long. But the point is... 	
LIZ	Okay but what’s this got to do with disability? 	
MAT	Anthony Chester here... 	
LIZ	Yeah. 	
MAT	... went home and discovered that he’s not a wheelchair user at all. 	
LIZ	Ah. 	
MAT	Now I actually think this is hideous because I’m not taking anything away from his wheelchair acting and he’d obviously been... because he got the gig four years before he actually filmed it, so he’d obviously spent a lot of time pumping his upper body and doing no leg exercises, so he’s got the thin wheelchair using legs and it looks really authentic. 	
LIZ	So we’ve got the old non disabled actor... 	
MAT	Crip it up. 	
LIZ	.. playing disabled cripping up. 	
MAT	Cripping or spaccing up whatever you want to call it. Now I’m not going to get all militant and old fashioned on it... 	
LIZ	Again. 	
MAT	... but I really thought, because I’ve changed a bit Liz about it, and now instead of angry I get genuinely sad because I know some really good, as do you, and many listeners here know of very good wheelchair using male athletic type actors who would have loved that part, who could’ve been a platform for Oscars and a great Hollywood career and once again it’s been denied a wheelchair using actor. And it really makes me livid. 	
LIZ	Do you know what really made me laugh in his email he said... 	
MAT	Yeah what does he... 	
LIZ	“The film was supposedly set in 2154 with super cyber technology, super helicopters, amazing computer stuff, the ability to fly to another planet, genetically mutate people yet the wheelchair user is using a chair that looks exactly like one you’d see in the street today. Obviously crip technology wasn’t prophesised to advance much in 150 years.” 	
MAT	It’s a really good point because they’ve got that amazing double rotator blade moving helicopter which is genuinely interesting on a sort of design, Sci-Fi level. So why haven’t they got a floating chair that uses magnetism?  	
LIZ	And moving on from magnetism...	
MAT	Well I can’t, Liz, because you're so magnetic I feel drawn to you. 	
LIZ	One we have here is Chris, male, 43. It’s one of those emails you get, you know... 	
MAT	Is it the dating thing? 	
LIZ	... the slightly weird ones. 	
MAT	Oh I see one of them.  	
LIZ	“I’d like to renew my travel insurance. I usually go with the Post Office but find it a bit dear. My wife and myself are disabled so I was wondering if we could get insured any cheaper from you?” 	
MAT	What? 	
LIZ	Unfortunately, Chris, no. Anyway next email. 	
MAT	I’ve got one here ‘Turtle man and his flute cane’	
LIZ	What the?	
MAT	I know. Paul McCauliff, male, 55 only a little older than me, “I have a pinched spinal nerve, Sciatica, and walk with a black and silver metal cane” this isn’t going to go where you think listeners, believe me. “This walking stick has been my constant companion since my back injury ten years ago. The cane has nine holes that allow you to adjust the height. Yes I’m a flute player and flute maker and have found seven musical notes in the cane. I can play it like a transverse, that’s side blown flute, you’ve got to walk with a cane you might as well be a jamming cane eh?” Absolutely. When he decided to purchase a new one though he won’t be looking for colour or style. He says, “I’ll be checking that thing for tone.” “Whenever I see someone else walking with a cane I’m always tempted to ask them, ‘Hey can I play that thing’ but I worry their first reaction might be to dial up law enforcement or smack me with the stick. ‘Officer arrest that nut ball’.” He goes on to talk about a lot of things to do with disability but for me, and because I recognise a lot of them and we’ve heard them a little bit before on this programme, but I don’t think any of us, have we, have heard of the musical cane. Nice one, thank you. 	
LIZ	Hey Simon’s joined us. Hello Mr Minty? 	
SIMON	Hi there Liz Carr. Hi there Mat. 	
LIZ	Actually there’s an email here from Corinne from San Francisco. “Dear Liz and Rob, I listened to your podcast January 14th and Simon Minty read the news.” You get mentioned here Simon. “I met Simon here in San Francisco when he attended our ADA Festival and showed the short film on the Fringe comedy in Scotland. 	
MAT	ADA what’s that? 	
LIZ	That documentary introduced me to Liz Carr’s humour and I’ve been a fan ever since.” 	
SIMON	It comes back to you there. 	
LIZ	Yeah, yeah, no. Actually the email’s not about that but... actually the email is all about how fantastic we talked about and you talked about how fantastic the transport, public transport is in San Francisco. 	
SIMON	Brilliant. ADA - Americans with Disabilities Act.	
MAT	Indeed having its 20th anniversary this year on the 26th July. 	
LIZ	Yeah. Thank you so much people because your emails this month were great. And because we’ve not had time to read them all out we’re bunging them up on the website unedited and in full. 	
MAT	That’s right. 	
LIZ	Yes you’ll find a link from the talk show episode 48 page on bbc.co.uk/ouch. 	
MAT	And we’re on Twitter too at BBC Ouch. It’ll be great to have you follow us and stay in touch and if you could tweet our link or add it to your Facebook updates that’ll be brilliant as well. We want to double our listenership in 2010 and we need your help to do it. So please email us on ouch@bbc.co.uk we love hearing from you.
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LIZ	Two thousand and ten I prefer that - twenty ten it’s a big debate. Are you a two thousand and ten or a twenty ten Simon? 	
SIMON	Probably two thousand and ten. 	
LIZ	Really? 	
SIMON	If I’m pushed to make a decision. 	
LIZ	Yeah, no I think we are but I think maybe the BBC haven’t... 	
MAT	Nineteen hundred and seventy five. 	
LIZ	Really? 	
MAT	Is it one thousand nine hundred and seventy five - did we say that? No we didn’t. 	
LIZ	Is Rain Man is that Rain Man with us here? Oh no he’s died. 	
MAT	Qantas Quantas. 	
LIZ	Simon, good to have you here for the news. Let’s get straight to it. The new IT... are we allowed to talk about ITV? The new ITV CEO is a disability fan. 	
MAT	Eh? 	
LIZ	Eh? 	
SIMON	This is a lovely story in that you read the headline and you would never think of disability, it was in The Times January 28th of this year twenty ten, two thousand and ten depending on which one of you. Ended its long running hunt for new chief exec this morning with the appointment of Adam Crozier. He’s come from the Royal Mail, there’s kind of ((0:14:32.3?)) he’s a strong leader, a great track record in delivering change. But ultimately it gets down a little bit further when he says he’s the Chairman of the Employers’ Forum on Disability. 	
MAT	I know. 	
SIMON	You did know that? 	
MAT	Yeah. 	
SIMON	But it’s not news is it? It’s fantastic in that meeting him via various events of Employers’ Forum on Disability obviously he’s got ITV to turn around but he’s on our side as it were. Before coming in I jotted a few things that had been on TV recently or around TV. We’ve got Oona King at Channel 4, Mark Thompson at the BBC absolutely driving it through. You've got your Strictly Wheelchair you’re going to talk about that later on. Ice with Heather Mills, all right there’s a couple of random ones. Cast Offs, the Paralympics have gone to Channel 4, How to Look Good Naked for disabled people - there just seems to be stacks of it. But the point being are we entering a golden age and is Adam Crozier going to be... ITV I think was the last bastion who’s never really tried this and maybe they will now.  	
LIZ	And they’ve to play catch up. 	
MAT	Yeah. 	
LIZ	Absolutely. Wow! But in a way they are because now the first sort of fulltime ((permanenty?)) wheelchair using character is coming in to Coronation Street, Cherylee Houston. 	
MAT	Cherylee? 	
LIZ	Yes you didn’t know that did you? 	
MAT	Congratulations Houston! 	
LIZ	Yes. 	
MAT	Congratulations. Okay so we don’t want to sober you up too much from thinking it’s a golden age of disability awareness but what’s all this about Martin Amis? 	
SIMON	Yeah Martin Amis, surprise surprise has got a book coming out, so quite cleverly he’s got a very publicity friendly quote. He’s calling for euthanasia booths on all street corners, this was in The Sunday Times...	
MAT	What for bad writers? 	
SIMON	He does say there comes an age where you sort of lose your skill and so on and you’ve got to maybe think about it. But what’s he ((0:16:09.7?)). He’s obviously a fantastic British author and he’s torn by internal strive because in the twenty twenties the demographic time bomb of the aging population has got to be tackled head on. So it’s quite dramatic, he’s a writer, the invasion of ((0:16:26.6?)) sticking out of restaurants, cafes and shops these are old people by the way the ((Silverson Army?)). Ultimately what he’s saying is we can go into this booth in every corner, get a martini, a medal and call it a day.  	
MAT	Boy that’s a really weird thing Martin Amis. Mid life crisis I’m not sure what’s going on there. 	
SIMON	He’s, I think he’s mid 60s he’s a grandfather as well. This came out the same time the Equality and Human Rights Commission were saying we’re all going have to work until at least well way over 65, the current retirement age. 	
LIZ	Of course yes. 	
SIMON	So there’s this contradiction we’re all going to get old but are we going to have to work or are we all going to go a little bit peculiar? 	
LIZ	You know what they could do, they could just sort of cut out the middle man and make all the accessible toilets euthanasia booths couldn’t they? 	
SIMON	There’s a lovely way, yes I like that. 	
LIZ	Maybe. 	
SIMON	They could double up or even photo booths as well, there could be a whole load, little photo before you go... 	
LIZ	Nice. 	
SIMON	... with your medal and martini. 	
LIZ	If you're going to go for it you might as well. 	
SIMON	I think this is all part of a bigger... 	
MAT	Do it for Martin. 	
SIMON	Well yeah but kind of two or three days ago we got Sir Terry Pratchett, fabulous author suddenly appears and he’s got Alzheimer’s, he’s had it a couple of years, and he’s saying, “Look I want assisted” I think he called it death “assisted death”. And you can see there’s a groundswell of very popular opinion because it makes sense in the purest sense of an individual being able to choose. But there was no real kind of conversation about the ramifications of that and what could happen.  	
MAT	There never is is there?	
SIMON	Well no and I kind of instinctively have a kind of tummy flip moment of I am a disabled person, you know, I wasn’t going to live would have meant when I was born they wouldn’t have pursued anything and I don’t know it becomes very awkward. 	
LIZ	Oh it’s a tough one isn’t it? And doesn’t it feel... it feels to me very much like assisted suicide has become like the new black it’s so fashionable. 	
SIMON	It’s everywhere yeah. 	
LIZ	Incredible isn’t it and now, you know, we’ve got Martin Amis, we’ve got Terry Pratchett it’s kind of like a celebrity thing. 	
SIMON	Yeah. 	
LIZ	Celebrities are endorsing death now. 	
MAT	So what about celebrity euthanasia on... 	
LIZ	Ice. 	
MAT	Strictly Celebrity Euthanasia or something. 	
LIZ	Well actually somebody put on Facebook a fabulous actually a guy Richard Downs put why don’t we just use an old formula and have ‘I’m a Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here’? It could have a whole different meaning. 	
MAT	Nice. 	
LIZ	I have to say here, you know, if you’ve listened to the podcast before you will know that me and Mat are kind of biased on the other side. We’re not really for assisted suicide. 	
MAT	This is our own personal opinion. But, Liz, I once again want to reiterate, and I’m sure you agree, that given 98% of the media coverage on this subject that never ever expresses the view that we have, and I think we’re totally validated in purely saying what we think on this talk show. I mean where else can this opinion be voiced in public if not here. 	
SIMON	There was an interesting little bit, the celebrity part of it, I was listening to Charlie Brooker who does a programme called Newswipe. And they were saying the problem with celebrity stuff is it means it drowns out authentic voices of people who have actually really thought about this for years and years. Now Terry Pratchett of course is entitled to his opinion as is Martin Amis but they might have only been thinking about it for the last couple of years.   	
MAT	Yeah. 	
SIMON	There’s a lot more to it than to just have a celebrity come out and talk about it you need to have some more balance and not drown out those voices that have other opinions. To be honest I’m muddled I mean I, as well as all those programme ideas, I’ve got the feeling that Toyota were trying to help with this as well because you get one of their cars the accelerator stays on and you’re flying off a cliff. 	
MAT	That’s right. 	
SIMON	It would save a lot of time for everybody. 	
LIZ	So now it’s sponsored. Sponsored, not only celebrity endorsed. 	
MAT	Allegedly. 	
SIMON	Of course. 	
LIZ	Shall we move on? 	
MAT	Yes. 	
LIZ	Shall we, shall we. 	
SIMON	All right if we must. 	
LIZ	We could have a whole hour on this couldn’t we? 	
MAT	Yeah. Equality bill. 	
SIMON	Now depending on your point of view this is the Equality and Human Rights Commission they are overseeing the legislation but essentially it’s going through the House of Lords this an Equality Bill to bring all of our UK legislation, all the six strands, whether it’s disability all the other ones I’m not going to mention it just for time, bring them all together... 	
LIZ	Okay. 	
SIMON	... and just have one single piece of law. There’s a couple of bits that are most interesting. One is that the pre-employment health questionnaires, I told you it would be interesting...	
MAT	Yeah. 	
SIMON	... would become illegal. 	
MAT	That’s right they would. 	
SIMON 	The other bit is that positive discrimination could become legal too. So you can have two people sitting there and they’re exactly the same in theory and you say, “Actually I’m going to have the disabled one” “I’m going to have the black person” “I’m going to have the...” whatever it might be ((0:20:42.3?)) because we’re not representative so positive discrimination potentially becoming legal. 	
MAT	Yeah but that’s a two headed horse... 	
LIZ	A what? 	
MAT	... if ever there was. 	
SIMON	They’re covered by the Bill as well. Yeah no problem. 	
LIZ	But would they have to fill in... 	
MAT	No it is because... 	
LIZ	... a questionnaire? 	
MAT	Here’s me an employer right and I’ve got one post to fill. 	
SIMON	Yes. 	
MAT	Right and I like one candidate more than the other just on a personality level or a worker level, but the other one should get the job for credential reasons or whatever and I can just create an imbalance in my workforce saying, “Oh actually we don’t have enough people called Simon that work for us, I’m going to have to choose Simon” I mean it can work both ways can’t it that positive discrim--... it’s basically employer’s favouritism discrimination isn’t it? 	
SIMON	The theory being previously to this of those six strands, except for disability, you could always positively discriminate under the law. But you could never say I want a woman over a man or a man over a woman or any other contrast. They’re saying now you can. 	
MAT	Or a woman over a woman. 	
SIMON	I’m not talking about that sort of thing I’m talking about employment. 	
LIZ	You're so childish. 	
MAT	I know. 	
LIZ	You're so childish. 	
SIMON	More coffee? So yeah it could have a backlash, it’s going to be great there’s going to be some commentators that are going to come flying out saying, “Oh we’re going to have companies full of all sorts”. I think you’re right ultimately people will manipulate this to how they wish to. The theory being if the Bill gets through could come into place before October which is pretty amazing. 	
MAT	Yeah. 	
SIMON	And that would be great. The only bit I do worry about is that our new commission that combine all the commissions hasn’t been hugely spectacular at the moment. 	
LIZ	Shall we get the flip chart out and have a training session?	
SIMON	Yes sorry I’ve gone a bit ((0:22:13.8?))	
LIZ	No it’s all right. Anyway thanks for that issue based. 	
MAT	Time for a lunch break? 	
LIZ	Headlines Simon, headlines you’d have liked to have seen come on. 	
SIMON	It’s a bit of an old favourite and it’s a personal whinge. The headline ‘Airlines welcome independent travellers who have a disability’. 	
MAT	Yeah like blub blub they do. 	
SIMON	I’m having a running battle with an airline. I’m flying out two months before I told them I was bringing my scooter and they phone me up every three days and I say, “Listen I’ll come in, check in I will go to the gate give you my scooter and off we go” and they go, “Yeah that’s fine but we will transfer you to a wheelchair.” And I say, “No, no, no don’t worry I’ve been to your terminal I know how it works, don’t worry. What I’ll do is I’ll go ((0:22:52.8?)) I’ll give it to you at the gate.” And they go, “Yeah, yeah fine no problem she will take it off you and we’ll put you in a wheelchair.” They keep repeating this and they’re saying we’ll call you back in a few days. I say, “There’s no need I’ve told you what’s happening.”  	
MAT	His fists are clenched. 	
LIZ	Oh he’s getting angry. 	
SIMON	I get so ratty. 	
LIZ	Is this one of the things you're going to be talking about in your new column Simon? 	
SIMON	I think it could be.	
MAT	Eh? 	
LIZ	Eh? 	
SIMON	I hope it will be a little bit more amusing than this. Yeah the idea disability is everywhere. 	
LIZ	Okay. 	
SIMON	I think just even doing these news stories it is everywhere it permeates everything but we don’t always recognise it. So the idea being that we can start saying, “Ah I never thought disability connected to that.” 	
LIZ	And Simon you’ll be bringing it to the Ouch website. 	
SIMON	Yes I will be. I’m not sure when... 	
LIZ	Excellent. 	
SIMON	... this comes out but hopefully it will be soon. 	
LIZ	Look forward to it. Well thank you again for this month’s news, Simon.	
MAT	Yes thank you, Simon, it’s lovely to have you back on the programme. 	
SIMON	Thank you for having me. 	
MAT	On the 11th February a reality show with a difference airs on digital channel BBC3 Dancing On Wheels will follow the fortunes of six couples, half disabled and half celebrity, as they compete to represent the United Kingdom at the World Wheelchair Dance Championships in Israel. 	
LIZ	We have wheelchair user Simone Milani.	
SIMONE	Hello. 	
LIZ	Hello. 	
SIMONE	Hi. 	
LIZ	And Paul Jacobs on the line. Hi Paul. 	
PAUL	Hiya. Hi. 	
LIZ	Two of the contestants. So you survived you’re both here. 	
SIMONE	We made it through in one piece yeah. 	
LIZ	It’s a reality TV show. 	
SIMONE	It is a reality TV show yeah. And basically they paired six wheelchair users with six celebrities and the form was kind of basically based on Strictly Come Dancing. 	
LIZ	Okay. 	
SIMONE	So each week we would learn a new style of dance. And we’d have to perform it to an audience. And then we’d have... there was a panel of judges and they’d judge us all and one couple would leave every week. 	
MAT	Okay. 	
LIZ	So how do the rules of wheelchair dancing work? 	
MAT	Oh yes. 	
LIZ	Are there any kind of, you know, if you fall out or if you bump into people were there any rules that you had to abide by in the show? 	
PAUL	I’m not 100% sure on all of the rules. There is, you know, if you fall out of your chair that you can restart your dance again sort of thing. 	
MAT	Is falling out of your chair the equivalent of tripping over and falling flat on your face for walkers? 	
PAUL	Yeah I’d put that down to that yeah. 	
LIZ	And did you ever fall out then? 	
PAUL	I didn’t no. 	
MAT	Ooh!	
LIZ	Simone? 	
SIMONE	I didn’t no, but one of our fellow contestants did. 	
LIZ	Really? 	
SIMONE	Yeah. 	
LIZ	In a competition as well. 	
MAT	But what is it, Simone, what is wheelchair dancing? I mean what’s the difference between moving from A to B in a wheelchair... 	
SIMONE	Yeah. 	
MAT	... and dancing from... 	
SIMONE	Well what happens is it’s all based, as Brian would tell us every day, it’s all based on the connection between the able bodied partner and the disabled partner. So it’s all about... 	
MAT	It’s beautiful. 	
SIMONE	... using kind of... you know, you’d hold hands or you’d keep your form and stuff by them dancing or, you know, doing their steps it would kind of pull the wheelchair along, and then you’d also control the wheelchair as well with your other hand maybe or you’d do a solo piece. So it’s kind of it’s really difficult to explain that’s the thing, that’s why people need to watch the show. 	
LIZ	Yeah because sometimes my view of wheelchair dancing in the past and before I saw, you know, we have seen a clip of it, I was thinking will you just be sitting there in the middle and them sort of prancing around you? 	
SIMONE	Yeah. 	
LIZ	You know I was worried that you’d look... 	
SIMONE	Like before I started the show I was really worried about that too because I’m a very independent person and I love to dance sort of independently, and I didn’t want it to be like let’s just spin them round and there was that kind of pitying thing, but it’s nothing like that at all and the wheelchair users are just as dynamic. 	
LIZ	So let’s play a clip now of Hollyoaks actor, Kevin Sacre, who’s talking about his experiences on the show. 
“I don’t see the chair and I’m just dancing with Simone. And for me that’s a massive thing because, I hate to say it, I had that... I was worried about it. I want people to realise from this show that you shouldn’t think like that, I mean, it’s so narrow minded.”
And he was sort of saying, you know, after working with you he was seeing you very differently. 	
SIMONE	Yeah. 	
LIZ	He wasn’t seeing the chair he was just seeing Simone. How did you find, both of you really, how did you find working with the celebrities what were their attitudes initially? 	
PAUL	Well for me personally meeting Heather was very much sort of sort of stepping around me a bit not quite sure what she could say or how she could touch me or move me in my chair, so it was that sort of us gradually getting to know each other and knowing sort of, you know, that I can be touched and I won’t take offence to so and so, you know. 	
MAT	Sure. 	
PAUL	It’s just ((0:27:23.5?)) really. Yeah and Simone, did Kevin touch you? 	
SIMONE	He touched me yes, he touched me. 	
LIZ	In many way, in many ways. 	
MAT	That was Heather Small by the way Paul’s dancing partner. Sorry not to be confused with Heather Mills, that’s a different programme. Anyway...	
SIMONE	I never really felt a kind of awkwardness with Kevin, I don’t know if that’s because I’m quite confident so it probably didn’t make him feel like there would be an issue. And I think Kevin’s the kind of person who would tend to make a joke out of something rather than kind of tiptoe around it. 	
LIZ	So you had one teacher, you had one kind of... 	
SIMONE	Yes that was Brian... 	
LIZ	Brian. 	
SIMONE	... who held our hand through it all. 	
MAT	And is Brian a wheelchair user? 	
SIMONE	He’s not no. But he definitely got into character for that and he had his own wheelchair that he’d sort of sit in and show us what to do and stuff. But he’d been involved in wheelchair dance sport before. 	
LIZ	And did you love him and hate him? 	
SIMONE	Er... 	
LIZ	Oh I think that answers that question. 	
MAT	Yes I hear it. 	
SIMONE	We loved him. Of course we did. 	
MAT	Did you hate him a little bit as well Paul? 	
PAUL	((0:28:25.7?)) he did push ((0:28:26.5?)) when he wanted to. ((0:28:28.6?)) hate Brian. 	
LIZ	So was there a lot of tears and tantrums on the programme over the weeks? 	
SIMONE	Yeah I mean...	
PAUL	There was a couple yeah. 	
SIMONE	I think it’s really an intense thing and, you know, you’re both learning something totally new and you have to kind of put your trust in each other and you're performing it in front of people and it’s going to be on TV and so there was a lot of pressure involved. And obviously Brian’s the person doing all of the choreography and teaching it all so it was quite an intense kind of environment. But there was so much fun as well like everyone was always joking and stuff. 	
MAT	I’d like to ask a question; apparently Ade Adepitan is a judge on it. 	
SIMONE	He is a judge yeah. 	
MAT	How did you find his judging because as far as I know he’s not particularly expert at dancing.	
LIZ	He ain’t a dancer I didn’t think... 	
MAT	No. 	
LIZ	... or maybe. 	
MAT	I mean he’s an athlete and a wheelchair user we know that. 	
SIMONE	I thought he was quite fair didn’t you think so Paul like he was probably the fairest judge. 	
PAUL	I think he was because he picked up on how hard it is to actually control the wheelchair.  	
SIMONE	Exactly. 	
PAUL	Not just the dancing side of it. 	
LIZ	So, you know, Dancing On Ice, we’ve got Strictly Come Dancing, dancing is the hot thing so, you know, wheelchair dancing it was inevitable it was going to happen. Should there be more programmes like this? 	
PAUL	I’d like to see some more things on disability how, you know, how people get on with their lives and, you know, what is actually out there for people with disability that we, you know, we’re not just shut away we can get out and do all these things. 	
MAT	Yeah or perhaps a talent competition for people with Down’s Syndrome called The X Chromosome Factor. I just thought of that it’s terrible please edit it out. 	
LIZ	You’re so no, no... please don’t edit that out. 	
SIMONE	Well sorry just to pick up your point on that. I kind of feel the opposite way in a way, I’d like to see sort of more mainstreaming of stuff rather than shows specifically focused on disability. Like for me my whole, and you’ll see, probably see this in the actual series, is that there was a bit of kind of disagreement about what it meant for us to be on the show. And I know some people felt that we were kind of ambassadors of the disabled community, and personally I didn’t feel that way. I thought I’m an individual I love to dance, if people want to kind of put like pigeon hole you in a way because you're a disability and therefore you must represent everyone with a disability then that’s their choice, but I just think the more people with disability are seen on TV the more you’ll just come to see people with disabilities as normal individuals who just happen to have disabilities. 	
LIZ	So you were there because you like to dance. 	
MAT	I agree. 	
SIMONE	I was there because I like to dance and hopefully people will just, you know, see that we’re just normal people too. 	
LIZ	Now what would be great is of course if the winner, whoever the winning couple of this show are, if they got to be on Strictly Come Dancing the next series. 	
SIMONE	Yeah. 	
LIZ	Now that would be... 	
SIMONE	That’s a good idea.	
LIZ	... that would be mainstream. 	
MAT	Yeah I think... 	
SIMONE	That would be... definitely. 	
MAT	... yeah that would be very good. 	
LIZ	So how are we going to find out, when’s the show on, how can we find out more about it? 	
MAT	Yeah is there a website?	
SIMONE	So Thursday 11th February.	
LIZ	Fantastic. 	
SIMONE	BBC3 9:00 o’clock I think, I believe. 	
LIZ	Well there’s discussion groups on the Ouch message board... 	
MAT	Oh that’s raging already. 	
LIZ	And if you want to see it bbc.co.uk/dancingonwheels. Thank you Simone. 	
SIMONE	Thank you. 	
LIZ	Thank you so much Paul for joining us. 	
PAUL	Thank you. 
[Jingle: You're listening to the Ouch Talk Show]
[Jingle: Now it’s time for Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable]	
MAT	The game we absolutely love to hate is back to fortify us all putting hairs on our chests and helping to combat night blindness. 	
LIZ	Where are those tweezers? 	
MAT	What? 	
LIZ	I don’t know. On the line this month we’ve got someone with a highly appropriate name for this game, hello Lettuce Wigby. Lettuce.	
LETTUCE	Hello.	
MAT	Hello Lettuce. 	
LIZ	Are you really called Lettuce? 	
LETTUCE	Yes I am 100% that was my birth name. 	
LIZ	Wow you are our perfect, perfect person to have on this quiz. Thank you so much. 	
MAT	Yes thank you so much. 	
LETTUCE	That’s okay. 	
MAT	Wow. I’ve got to ask why did your parents call you Lettuce? 	
LETTUCE	Good question. Well I wish I knew the answer. My mum told me that her mum, my grandma, forced her to call me Lettuce. I don’t know the circumstances as to why perhaps she lost a bet or something. 	
LIZ	Is she a strong advocate for five a day or something like that, you know. 	
LETTUCE	Yeah and I think cruelty against children. I enjoy it, I like the novelty, it’s unique. 	
LIZ	And are you known as Lettuce or is it more, you know, do you make it a little bit more continental than that now? 	
LETTUCE	High school, secondary school I changed it to Letice. 	
LIZ	Okay. 	
LETTUCE	But it’s really annoying because it doesn’t even read that way so now I’m caught in the middle. I’m like do I go with Lettuce, or Letice or Leticia? 	
LIZ	So you mentioned high school are you at high school still or...? 	
LETTUCE	No now I’m at university. 	
LIZ	Okay. 	
MAT	Oh which one? 	
LETTUCE	Kings College London. 	
MAT	Okay. We’re obviously in the preamble chat you know the thing you mustn’t reveal anything about your impairment, but what are you studying? 	
LETTUCE	Geography. 	
LIZ	What are you going to be when you grow up? 	
LETTUCE	Well I’d like to continue to study. So after my Masters I’d like to do a PhD and I just like research and things like that. 	
LIZ	Okay well good luck with it. 	
LETTUCE	Thank you very much. 	
LIZ	And good luck with this because you know we’re dreadful... 	
LETTUCE	I know. 	
LIZ	... at it. 	
LETTUCE	I’m worried. 	
LIZ	You’ll be fine don’t worry.  	
LETTUCE	Thank you very much. 	
MAT	All right are we ready team? 	
LIZ	Go for it. 	
MAT	Here we go. Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable is a clever disability interpretation of the parlour game Animal, Vegetable or Mineral. In the game the two hosts of the Ouch talk show have 90 seconds to guess what is wrong with the disabled caller on the line by asking a series of fiendishly intelligent questions. The caller must answer only yes or no. It is both classic and therapeutic.	
LIZ	To take part in the intrusive and unpleasant game the rules clearly state you have to be disabled. Lettuce, are you disabled?	
LETTUCE	Definitely yup. 	
MAT	We have 90 seconds on the clock let us begin. Your time starts NOW. 	
LIZ	Are you blind? 	
LETTUCE	No. 	
MAT	Are you ever attacked by slugs? 	
LETTUCE	No.	
LIZ	Do you have webbed feet?	
LETTUCE	No. 	
MAT	Are you better tasting when doused in healthy salad cream? 	
LETTUCE	Yes. 	
LIZ	Are you bald?	
LETTUCE	No.	
LIZ	Can you move your neck from left to right? 	
LETTUCE	Yes.	
LIZ	Do you have a body? 	
LETTUCE	Yes. 	
MAT	Thumbs? 	
LETTUCE	Pardon? 	
MAT	Do you have thumbs?	
LETTUCE	Yes. 	
LIZ	Do people stare at you in the street?	
LETTUCE	All the time. 	
LIZ	Do they point and shout “Freak!”	
LETTUCE	No. 	
LIZ	That’s just Mat then. 	
MAT	Do you have any bizarre physical ticks? 	
LETTUCE	No. 	
LIZ	Do you use a wheelchair?	
LETTUCE	No. 	
LIZ	Do you limp?	
LETTUCE	No. 	
MAT	Crutches? 	
LETTUCE	No. 	
LIZ	Do you take tablets? 	
LETTUCE	Only when I have a headache. 	
MAT	Do you have a white stick?	
LETTUCE	No. 	
LIZ	Are you deaf?	
LETTUCE	No.	
LIZ	Do you have epilepsy?	
LETTUCE	No.	
MAT	Do you have a problem with your boyfriend’s sprouts? 	
LETTUCE	Pardon?	
MAT	No sorry that was stupid. Do butterflies tend to settle on your head?	
LETTUCE	Sometimes. 	
LIZ	Do you not get along with other salad vegetables? 	
LETTUCE	I hate tomatoes. 	
LIZ & MAT	Ah!	
LIZ	Excellent is that your impairment? 	
LETTUCE	Yeah. 	
LIZ	But there’s something else as well isn’t there? She doesn’t like tomatoes and... 	
MAT	Do you have a psychiatric condition? 	
LETTUCE	No.	
LIZ	No. Can you use your hands? 	
LETTUCE	Yes. 	
LIZ	Oh God is it a neurological condition? 	
LETTUCE	No. 	
LIZ	Oh no. 	
MAT	MS?	
LETTUCE	Hello?	
MAT	Oh not again, not again. 	
LIZ	Oh no don’t patronise us, Lettuce, don’t. 	
MAT	Please patronise by Lettuce please. 	
LIZ	Oh man. Right, okay so it’s time for you to tell us what’s wrong with you, put us out of our misery please, Lettuce. 	
LETTUCE	Definitely. I have dyslexia. 	
MAT	Doh! [repeating Dyslexia, dyslexia]	
LIZ	Dyslexia. And I hope every time that you say it that you get that in the background as well. Oh my God dyslexia. 	
MAT	Oh dear oh dear. So well well done. 	
LIZ	It wasn’t even that difficult.	
LETTUCE	Thank you yeah. 	
MAT	Well done because we should have got that one, it’s a pretty common impairment. 	
LETTUCE	I thought you would. 	
MAT	So, Lettuce when people find out that you’ve got dyslexia what kind of stupid questions do they ask you? 	
LETTUCE	Well I don’t usually tell people actually. I don’t know if I should and wave the flag but I don’t just in case. 	
MAT	Do you get extra time in your studies?	
LETTUCE	Yeah. They’re really generous I think I get quite a few benefits: extra time, it’s in a really nice building that’s closer. All the other students have to go hours away off campus, I get to stay on campus. 	
MAT	Wah, wah, wah, wah to them. But one final thing do you like lettuce? 	
LETTUCE	I love it. 	
LIZ	Yeh! 	
MAT	What every sort - Cos, Iceberg? 	
LETTUCE	Oh Iceberg’s my favourite... 	
LIZ	Really?	
MAT	Yeah well isn’t it all... 	
LIZ	I like Baby Gem. 	
MAT	All right. Well, Lettuce, you’ve been strong, firm and crisp to the bite and thank you so much for beating us, you horrible person. 	
LETTUCE	Thank you for having me. 	
LIZ	Take care. 	
LETTUCE	Thank you very much. 	
LIZ	Thank you. 	
LETTUCE	Okay. Bye. 	
LIZ	And remember if you want to be a contestant on a future Veg, Veg or Veg game then email us at ouch@bbc.co.uk that’s ouch@bbc.co.uk or tweet us on at BBC Ouch.
[Jingle: bbc.co.uk/ouch]	
MAT	Why do you look like that? 	
LIZ	What? 	
MAT	Why are you funny in a chair? 	
LIZ	Erm... 	
MAT	Why are you like that? Mum, why is he like that? Kids - love ‘em, hate ‘em they’re there. I thought that was great. 	
LIZ	Are we talking about children? I’m scared of them. 	
MAT	Why? 	
LIZ	I’m scared of children. 	
MAT	Why because they can like you mean a child gang wielding knives on the South Bank. 	
LIZ	I wish, right okay. So while you were away... 	
MAT	Oh God what’s happened? 	
LIZ	I went to visit a friend of mine and she’s got two children; she’s got a five year old and she’s got a two year old okay. 	
MAT	Oh not good ages. 	
LIZ	Ah. And I was out with the mum, I was out with my friend and then she said, “If I pick the girls up” she said, “then you could come home for tea with us and see the girls.” And it was like, “No actually I’ve got to go” and then I thought but I want to see my fr--... you know torn, I want to see my friend but all I could hear was like the omen music you know. And I’m thinking I don’t want to see the children because her older girl right, hates me, and... 	
MAT	Why? 	
LIZ	I don’t know. I don’t even know if it’s disability related, I don’t know, I don’t know if she’s just like that with strangers anyway because I don’t... I see them say twice a year, right. So at that age they don’t really know me. 	
MAT	It could be anything, it could be any of those things yeah. 	
LIZ	But she came to the house once and she wouldn’t even come in the house and the dad had to sit with her in the car. And then we had to spend half of the time, of course rather than enjoying it going “Let’s try and make everything fine for so and so to come in and nah, nah, nah, nah. And here’s my trampoline and you can play on that. And here’s my wheelchair Barbie and you can play...” and it was all about that. So I had that history and then I just didn’t want to go... I did anyway. So I met the children... 	
MAT	Yeah how wa--... 	
LIZ	... and she didn’t say hello or anything. And in fact they both looked at me and then ran into the living room right. 	
MAT	Hm-mm. Hm-mm. 	
LIZ	And then Sarah said, “Now I’ve got a present for Auntie Lizzie” and she said, “and will you give the present to Auntie Lizzie” and they both ran away. 	
MAT	This reminds me of my neighbour who... single mum about 45, eight year old boy okay, and they needed to go to the shops and her car was in the garage and I’m being neighbourly I said, “Well I’ll run you to the shop.” They get in the car he starts crying and whispers something to her and they get out and he’s too scared to get in my car. And do you know what it was? 	
LIZ	What?	
MAT	He’d heard her saying, “I’ve no idea how he drives with those little arms.” And it had been her that had instilled the fear in the child. So my question to you is do you think it came from the parents? 	
LIZ	Oh maybe I don’t know. She said they know who you are... 	
MAT	That’s helpful. 	
LIZ	That’s lovely and they’re cool with it. But the thing is almost like me and her mum haven’t really ta--... it is like this big elephant in the room that it’s kind of like your children hate me what are you saying to them or are they just like this normally? 	
MAT	And also you know why didn’t the father, I’m sorry to sound like Victorian dad, but why didn’t he say, “That’s not good enough you're going inside whether you like it or not.” 	
LIZ	No I know. So it does feel a little bit like they’re kind of playing around it and actually there is an issue and they aren’t comfortable with me, but I feel embarrassed both with the mum and with the children. But I’ve realised I am actually like that with other children. 	
MAT	I was just going to say is that a reason to hate all children Liz? 	
LIZ	But then, well okay so then the other day I’m sitting in a restaurant, there’s two of us, we’re both crippies right and this little boy goes to the loo, he comes back so he passes the table, he comes back he sees me and, you know, and your heart sinks it does, my heart sinks it’s like oh no right. And he stands about a foot away from me just literally staring at me. 	
MAT	Yeah we’ve all had it. 	
LIZ	And I know it’s not... 	
MAT	Crips listening, we all know this right, well maybe not the blind ones, but we all know it. 	
LIZ	And it’s just like, you know, I sort of said, “Oh I see I’ve got an audience then” kind of quite loud looked at him I said, “Are you okay?” And he just like stood there. 	
MAT	Yeah but don’t you find that when that happens often a simple engagement with the child “Can I help you?” “Why have you got funny arms?” “Because my mum took a bad pill and now I’m like this but it doesn’t hurt, go away.” And then they’re done because they’re inquisitive little souls with an honest streak. 	
LIZ	Yeah but Mat if you do talk to them about half an hour about, you know, the perils of the pharmaceutical industry then that will bore anyone. 	
MAT	No I don’t... 	
LIZ	Adult or children. 	
MAT	... give them the whole potted history. 	
LIZ	Oh okay. 	
MAT	Of the thalidomide... 	
LIZ	Well you normally do. 	
MAT	... scandal. No I wait until they’re at least ten years old for that. 	
LIZ	So you're doing the it’s a chance to educate them and that whole... 	
MAT	No listen I hate being an unpaid ambassador for disability especially with children, who likes that job - none of us. But sometimes all I’m saying is their fascination is something quite simple that once you’ve told them they go away quite happily. 	
LIZ	No I know and I’ve seen that before. And in fact you think they’re looking at you and they’re looking at your wheel or they’re looking at your joystick or they’re actually, you know, I’ve had before when actually they weren’t looking at me they were looking at someone past me. Ooh I felt a fool. But I think that, you know, that’s the sort of the stranger’s children that’s one level and I think all disabled people who look a bit weird we’ve all had that. I think it’s just, you know I’ve realised I do when it comes to children of friends and all that, I feel quite awkward and I’m quite scared of them in case they’re going to say something. And it’s almost like it’s more weird because you’ve not only got the awkwardness with the children, but you’ve got the awkwardness with your friends or their parents, do you know what I mean?  	
MAT	It’s a huge social awkward fest isn’t it?	
LIZ	Don’t you... do you get...? 	
MAT	No I do as well. And there’s also the other thing because we can’t do the things that ‘normal parents’ can do we can’t go, “Oh dear, dear, dear” and they run to them and we pick them up and we throw them up in the air. 	
LIZ	Actually yeah that’s a good point. Yeah. 	
MAT	And there’s all those things as well isn’t there. I mean you always, I don’t want to bang on about thalidomide, but the only alternative experience I have to that is once a year when we have our annual general meeting all the ones with kids bring the kids, and of course the kids you always spot a thalidomide... a child of a thalidomide person because if they’re really little and they want to go somewhere they just put their arms round your neck and hang on and then you just get up and walk over and they’re just dangling there because that’s how they did it with their parents. 	
LIZ	Well that’s it. Because I think, you know, children of disabled parents they’re fine, that’s a whole isn’t it?	
MAT	And you oh, I mean, they often when they get a little bit older and especially if they’re little kids who want to be socially interactive, “Hello my mummy’s like you I know what to do” or whatever you know it’s actually quite cute I think all that. What about having children of your own Liz? 	
LIZ	Huh well... do you like that ((gasps)).	
MAT	Yeah look at her she can’t speak I’ve managed to do it, programme 48 - finally silenced the Carr. 	
LIZ	Would you? 	
MAT	Oh golly. 	
LIZ	Are you going to? 	
MAT	Don’t start that. 	
LIZ	At the great old age of 48 are you going to become a dad soon? 	
MAT	Don’t talk to me about this thanks. 	
LIZ	I’m not am I going to have children - probably not no. 	
MAT	Probably not no but maybe is my one. 	
LIZ	Okay. I’m probably not because I think I’m ((0:44:47.8?)) 	
MAT	Julie has a clock that is audible in its ticking that all I’m saying. Now what about going to schools and doing the “Hi guys we’re like you.” 	
LIZ	Would you be worried that your child would have... 	
MAT	“Do you want to come and touch?” 	
LIZ	... thalidomide?	
MAT	“Do you want to come and touch me?” “Guys... 	
LIZ	Would you? 	
MAT	... guys where’re you going?” 	
LIZ	That’s a good question. 	
MAT	What?	
LIZ	Would you be worried that your child might have thalidomide? 	
MAT	No because it’s medically impossible for a thalidomide parent to give birth to a thalidomide child it just can’t happen. 	
LIZ	((noise of cash register)) ((0:45:13.6?)) never happen. The blind producer’s just found the sound effect, I think... 	
MAT	The kerching sound effect and it’s quite apt because we did get a bit bunced up didn’t we by the government who said sorry finally after 48 years. And then we got lots of hate mail saying, “I worked all my life and you people you have it for nothing.” 	
LIZ	Oh is this about you getting a bit more money? 	
MAT	“Why don’t you go and join the circus?” 
A few weeks ago the iconic US kid’s TV show Seseme Street was visited by 14 year old jazz singer from Philadelphia Rocco Fiorentino and now it’s our turn to meet him. Hello. 	
LIZ	Hello Rocco.	
MAT	Rocco hi. 	
ROCCO	Hi how are you? 	
LIZ	All the way from Philadelphia. Well how exciting was it being on Seseme Street? 	
ROCCO	It was absolutely amazing. I think the characters were really fabulous and it was really a life experience to be there and see how the whole thing worked and the taping and the little hand puppets and I just, I loved it, it was probably the coolest thing I’ve ever done. 	
LIZ	I bet. 	
MAT	Like you, I mean, we’ve all grown up with Seseme Street and the Muppets and I’ve always wondered what it’s like in the studio because it must be so different to... 	
ROCCO	Oh yeah. I mean, Elmo is, you know, he’s been on now for 40 years and he’s an adult that has a quite low voice, you know. It’s really incredible that these characters can be, you know, they’re a normal person for one second and then when they say “Rolling” they’re someone else. 	
LIZ	And we hear that you were teaching Elmo and Telly Monster some disability awareness. How did that go? 	
ROCCO	Yes. I think the main message about all of that was that, you know, when you are blind like I am there’s nothing that’s bad about it, or anything that won’t be accepted to me as in life, it’s just a fact of my life and it’s nothing that stops me from doing what I love to do. 	
LIZ	And so that’s what you taught them. 	
MAT	Did you get to touch any of them?	
ROCCO	Yeah I did. 	
MAT	What did they feel like? 	
ROCCO	I got to touch like the puppets and actually in the script of Seseme Street that they wrote for us Telly describes what Elmo looks like. 	
MAT	Cool. There was some audio description. 	
ROCCO	He has buggy eyes on the top of his head and stuff like that. And I was feeling both of their heads and I said, “You know Elmo you... Telly you have buggy eyes too.” So, you know, it was very comical that day. 	
MAT	Now a famous blind individual that’s also a musician is Mr Stevie Wonder, now I know it’s cliché to talk... any blind singer has to talk about Stevie Wonder but I think in your case we’re valid, is that true? Have you met him? 	
LIZ	Met him? 	
ROCCO	Yes met him. 	
LIZ	Wow!	
MAT	What was it like? 	
ROCCO	Yeah that was... he had a piano and a microphone in the room and he said to me you know, “I hear you play the piano” and I said, “Yeah I do”. And he says, “Do you mind playing for me” and I said, “Oh that would be awesome” and so I played and he sang and it was amazing. 	
LIZ	And tell us was it more exciting meeting Elmo or Stevie?	
ROCCO	I don’t even know I think both of them were amazing. 	
LIZ	So we’re going to play out in a minute with a song called ‘The Real You’. Can you tell us what it’s about? 	
ROCCO	Well that song I wrote with a guy in New York, his name is Doug Maxwell, and we wrote that together. And it’s basically about how I see the world through my eyes, which is, you know a little bit different. 	
LIZ	Fantastic. 	
MAT	And how can people find out more about Rocco Fiorentino like on the web and stuff? 	
ROCCO	Well I do have a website it’s www.musicbyrocco.com R‑O‑C-C-O and there’s all kinds of different stuff on there so...	
LIZ	Fantastic. Well before we hear Rocco’s song we’ve got a bit of housekeeping to do. Thanks to the production team, Emma Tracey, Damon Rose, Zoe Breen and Tarik Davis. Studio manager was Adele Conlin. Access facilitators were Frank Burton and Simone White. And we’ll see you next month. 	
MAT	Yes. And here’s Rocco Fiorentino with ‘The Real You’. Bye everyone and perhaps you could say goodbye to us, Rocco, as we fade in the song and fade out your voice. 	
ROCCO	Bye everyone. 
[Playing music]