Ouch Podcast #52 – June 2010
bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast

Presented by Mat Fraser and Liz Carr

The Ouch Podcast is a download from the BBC. For more information, and our terms of use, go to bbc.co.uk/ouch.

[Jingle: O U C H spells Ouch]

LIZ	Hello. 

MAT	Hello I'm Mat Fraser. 

LIZ	And I'm Liz Carr.

MAT	Sorry I don't know why I'm speaking like this.

LIZ	No sorry we were doing that in a Carry On kind of way. 

MAT	We decided we'd try to do a Carry On intro, it didn't work. 

LIZ	Didn't really work. 

MAT	But why break the habits of a lifetime. 

LIZ	Oh watch my bazoobas. 

MAT	I'm depressed. 

LIZ	Oh no, why? 

MAT	Because we haven't got a disabled prime minister anymore. 

LIZ	I know, aren't you gutted we've got one, one who had a disabled child and has a disabled dad. 

MAT	A lot of people have disabled dads. 

LIZ	Cameron's got a disabled dad. 

MAT	I think it's called Cameronclegg or Clemeron. 

LIZ	Clegg.

MAT	Cleggamon. 

LIZ	Really? 

MAT	What is their new name? 
LIZ	I don't know but bye bye to Mr Why. 

MAT	Goodbye Gordon. Hello Nick and Dave. 

LIZ	It's a whole new bright new world over here in the UK. Hello everybody. 

MAT	And it's a very busy show today Liz. 

LIZ	Really, then get on with it. 

MAT	I will because in ten minutes time our very own Rob Croissant will be sharing with us those news stories which have gained his special attention this month. And then...

[Playing clip: Who is she, who is she, who is she where did you find her?]

Yes Liz who is she? 

LIZ	It's Nikki Grahame from Big Brother 2006 of course. She's in the studio later to talk about life with an eating disorder. 

MAT	Stay tuned for that. Also coming up... 

[Playing music]

That's Lá Reblá Fam a London based ska punk rock band who will be playing at Glastonbury later this month and they'll be talking excitedly about that later on in the show. 

LIZ	Wow it certain is a busy one isn't it eh? 

MAT	Ooh I can hardly contain myself. 

LIZ	But there's always time for Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable - the gruesome game is coming up later on. 

MAT	As ever we're always on the web at bbc.co.uk/ouch where you can read lots of interesting features, check out the blog, listen to audio extras including a recent travel panel discussion featuring our very own Liz Carr and much more, that is, once again on bbc.co.uk/ouch.
 
LIZ	Lovely. Are you well?
 
MAT	I am well, I've been getting over a head cold, they call it a summer cold. 

LIZ	Really? 

MAT	Yeah because there was like an hour of sunshine. 

LIZ	That was very exciting, I was quite... it was good, I was hot for once because I 
feel the cold. 

MAT	Yes I know. But no so... 

LIZ	I've had a good morning. 

MAT	Have you? 

LIZ	Yeah. 

MAT	You look full of beans. 

LIZ	No because do you know what I bumped into Peter White earlier. 

MAT	No literally - I was there. 

LIZ	Yeah I know, it's great. Extra points because I was backing out of a lift at BBC and I bumped into well I almost ran over Peter White which made me deliriously happy. 

MAT	One of two things that often happen when I watch you in the BBC. And the other thing happened as well didn't it? 

LIZ	Oh man. So there we are, we have a meeting before we record this okay? So we were in our meeting, we came out and there was a glass room where everyone could watch us passing by. And we passed by and what happened Mat?
 
MAT	You got 'the look'. [singing] You Got The Look! 

LIZ	Yeah not the look you want but that look that's like "Hm". 

MAT	See if we can make an audio version of 'the look'. So it's one of those frowning kind smiles of solidarity and slightly perplexed at the same time. "Hm."

LIZ	Isn't that nice that they're allowed in the BBC. That's the kind of... 

MAT	We support it fully but on god. Anyway... 

LIZ	Yes. So we have had a bit of good weather, you get excited about striping off the summer? 

MAT	Absolutely can't wait to burn my pointy little shoulders and nose. My pointy shoulders I can't reach them and you know what I'm like terribly autocratic even with sun cream and so I get burnt shoulders every year – to a crisp.

LIZ	Are you very vain? Do you go for the tanning stuff? Are you going to, you know... 
MAT	No I just, to be honest, I'm more of a Victorian in that respect. I like my vitamin A but I'm so worried about getting skin cancer to be honest that I plaster myself in factor 50 whenever I can except for the pointy shoulders. What about you? 

LIZ	Oh I cover up... 

MAT	How does your skin fair in the sun? 

LIZ	Oh it doesn't like... it frizzles it burns like streaky bacon. You can hear it, you can smell it.
 
MAT	[sizzling noise]

LIZ	That's me. 

MAT	Ah Liz. 

LIZ	That's me when it's 18 degrees outside pretty much, when it's in the 60s that's what I'm like. 

MAT	You're looking very well, skin's looking good. 

LIZ	Thank you. Well actually since we're talking about skin and... 

MAT	It's smooth it's looking. 

LIZ	Would you like to feel my face?

MAT	Yeah, sure. I'll pretend I'm blind for a second. 

LIZ	Yes just do that. [singing] Hello is it me you're... it's quite smooth isn't it? 

MAT	Yes it is smooth as I'd expect from a lady. 

LIZ	Well speaking of smooth skin, a seamless link there Matthew.

MAT	Beautiful. 

LIZ	We do – that’s the very, very attractive looking today Geoff Adam-Spinks. Hello Geoff. 

GEOFF	Good morning and good afternoon whatever time you're listening. 

LIZ	Hello. 

MAT	Oh he's good. 

LIZ	Well you normally report on disability for BBC. 

GEOFF	Yes I do. 
LIZ	But we've got you here today because you're looking very smooth of face. You have had cosmetic treatment on your face. 

MAT	What, what sort? 

GEOFF	I decided to go and have my face lasered because... 

MAT	Eh? 

GEOFF	Yes because, partly because I'm a bit of a vain person; but partly because I think also I reckon I spend 25 minutes a day shaving. And, you know, have you bought a packet of razor blades recently? - they're about £20 a throw. 

MAT	Prohibitively expensive it's agreed. 

GEOFF	Apparently they're one of the most shoplifted items from supermarkets. 

LIZ	Can I maybe explain that, Geoff, is a friend of Matthew, if you know what I'm saying. 

MAT	Not like a friend of Dorothy but like a friend... 

LIZ	Well similar. 

MAT	Basically listeners, Geoff's arms are, unbelievable as it might be for you to comprehend, even shorter than mine and I guess that impacts on your shaving time. 
 
GEOFF	It's a drag for me to shave because I'm a perfectionist and if there's that little tiny bit of stubble left I will do the whole thing all over again, and again and again and again, until I get it exactly perfect as I want it. So the idea that for the next 15 years I don't have to do any of that is really attractive. But I think the disability comes into it as well, yes it's convenience but it's an access issue. It took about 45 minutes and it's the first of six treatments. And I have to tell you after the first one I did actually doubt my sanity for a short while because it hurt like crazy. 

MAT	Well let's see if it was worth it because our very own Liz Carr, ladies and gentlemen, listeners is... 

LIZ	Let me have a feel. 

MAT	Oh she's feeling it. 

LIZ	Oh, oh I can feel the improvement. 

MAT	Was it smooth, Liz? 

LIZ	Yeah, no it is. 

MAT	She was feeling Geoff's chin, listeners, just then. 

LIZ	Mat, what would you have done? Would you have anything done for access, you know? 

MAT	Well given that apparently your hair DNA inheritance skips a generation and my grandfather had such bad nasal hair he ended up giving up and just started his moustache inside his nose. So I'd probably have the nasal hair done. What about you, Liz, would you have anything done?

LIZ	You know what I remember we had Claire Jennings on, a visually impaired woman, and she had lip liner tattooed on. 

MAT	That's right. 

LIZ	So there's the deal about having makeup and all that. 

MAT	This is another step though having your chin lasered off... 

LIZ	It's true. I've had my legs done for the very same reason that Geoff has. 

MAT	What lasered? 

LIZ	Yes. 

GEOFF	Did it hurt as much as it did on my mouth? 

LIZ	Yes it's terribly painful but because I couldn't... they were being bled to death because somebody else had to shave them so I saved up and it was my absolute (imaudible)

MAT	It must have cost a fortune because I'm guessing this isn't on the National Health Service. 

GEOFF	It's not cheap but I calculated that within 18 months I've got my money back just on razor blades alone never mind shaving gel.
 
MAT	Good luck with the remaining five treatments of what sounds like hell but it's worth it. 

LIZ	The very smooth Geoff Adam-Spinks, thank you. 

MAT	Gliding out the studio. Hey let's do some emails. 

LIZ	Okay. We've had a few, a few this month. 

MAT	Good. 

LIZ	Peter Gambey he's talking about you conduct the Southampton Choral Society, a choir of around 100 people which sings, works blah, blah, blah all sorts. Now you've experienced this disability but you're saying that despite long experiences in music you've only ever seen one blind person and two wheelchair users in choirs. Well people should get involved in choirs you're absolutely right, there was Open Access Choir who were in Last Choir Standing, I don't know if you remember that was a BBC reality show where they picked the best choir - that was fab - and also there's been a community choir at Da Da Fest in Liverpool. So as Peter said there's lots of choir stuff going on, so do get out there and get involved.
 
MAT	And there was that BBC drama called The Choir which had little Kiruna Stamell in it. 

LIZ	That's right. 

MAT	Nice to know that people from Mumbai and India listen to us. "Hi, we in India do not have such opportunities" says ((Jamal Mathranie – sp?)) and I hope Jamal I've pronounced your name right "of social participation as being conducted by the BBC. We'd like to be part of your show, please advise." Well my advice to you is keep listening, send in more stuff. If you ever come over here then come in and say hello. 

LIZ	I love it that they end their email "Aged 30, height 4" I think it's foot "have short limbs."
 
MAT	It's good to know, thanks very much. 

LIZ	I think everybody should sign off their email... 

MAT	With their impairment. 

LIZ	... with their impairments and statistics. 

MAT	Let's do that for the rest of the programme. 

LIZ	Absolutely. Next we have... 

MAT	Thanks very much Claire from Seattle. Thanks very much for your lovely comments and I'm glad you enjoy the show. 

LIZ	We have Oleana from Poland "Hello Mat and Liz. Surfing on the internet looking for podcasts for improving my English - I found yours.”

MAT	Uh-ho. 

LIZ	I think that's fascinating because what kind of an approach to English language are they going to get. Yeah crips, spaz, flid, there you go. 

MAT	And what search engine was she using?

LIZ	Oh my goodness. Anyway she admires what we do. 

MAT	That's nice. 

LIZ	Regards from Poland. 

MAT	And Sherry from Minnesota in the US stumbled on our podcast. "Yes I have feet, can feel them and walk." Well that's very nice. A little bit mocking the afflicted though to call into a disability site and then list all of the things you can do.  

LIZ	Here's what you would have won kind of thing. 

MAT	But thank you for your superiority complex. 

LIZ	One from Shalyn Northampton, hello Sha, you were born in August '95 and you found out you have dyspraxia. So you found it difficult at school and you have GCSEs coming up next year, poor you, but you're going to be fine I'm sure. You say that you're wondering if we had any pointers on how to concentrate on schoolwork. Thank you for getting in touch. Mat? 

MAT	Have you got any? Rob's here with us. 

ROB	Well I did my GCSEs on the year you were born, so I don't know you probably do... 

MAT	That's a strange subject. 

ROB	... it on iPads now. But essentially I found because my eyes prevented me from studying books for a very, very long period of time I was a little bit geeky, and I started very, very early and only did about 40 minutes a day, but I started incredibly early and just did it that way. 

LIZ	Okay so you were planned and you prepared. I'd say, Sha, one thing... 

ROB	Still failed should I say. 

LIZ	... know what you're entitled to, Sha, and that might include extra time as well just for the exam and everything like that. 

ROB	That's right you are entitled to extra time and I did get half an hour extra time for all my GCSEs and A-levels so make sure you get that in the bag. 

LIZ	It can be really helpful can't it but good luck. And I'd say turn the TV off. 

ROB	Also make sure you're in the right exam hall because I remember for my very first… 

MAT	Duh!

ROB	... my very first A-level exam yeah exactly. The lecturer came out to the front, there was about 400 terrified people in West Cheshire college and said, "Welcome to the A-level Sociology exam. Now before we get started I don't suppose there's anybody here who's turned up thinking this is the Economics exam that took place yesterday." And everybody was just looking round just going, "Huh ridiculous." And then you just heard this little "Duh" from one guy as he scraped back his chair and did a walk of shame all the way through the exam hall. So yeah turn up to the right place, revise early and get your extra half hour.

[Jingle: You're listening to the Ouch talk show.] 

LIZ	Well in less than ten minutes we're going to be putting on our scary Big Brother voices and inviting Nikki Grahame to come to the dining room, but first you've probably notice Rob Crossan has arrived to do our news, our monthly news. Hello Rob. 

ROB	Hello. 

MAT	Wearing a lovely hat. 

ROB	Yeah. 

MAT	Which we can't decide now what hat is it? 

ROB	It's a half trilby, half panama. 

LIZ	Can I ask has it been grafted on for cosmetic purpose reasons? 

ROB	Well I have been wearing it a lot recently. I had someone ask me the other day say, "Rob, obviously you're a travel writer do you try and blend in with the locals?" I was like, "Look at me I'm wearing a trilby, pasty white skin, ill-fitting shorts like yeah where do you think I'm from?"

LIZ	Surely you would get a hat like that on the NHS because you can't burn... 

ROB	Should do shouldn't I?

LIZ	... you've got such fair skin. 

ROB	I should get sun block on the NHS as well. 

LIZ	So some on, Rob, what's your first story? We've got here... 

ROB	Yeah it's Wenlock & Mandeville who are the mascots for the 2012 London 
Paralympics, God help us.  

MAT	Have you seen them? 

ROB	Yes. I don't actually have a photo to show you. 

MAT	I've seen them. 

ROB	Have you seen them yet? 

MAT	Yeah it was in the paper. Have you seen it Liz?

LIZ	Oh yeah. 

ROB	We will put them on the website. 

MAT	Tell the listeners. 

ROB	Well what I prefer most of all is that they showed it to a load of primary schools kids to get their reaction and one of them said, "They remind you of aliens, which is really weird and cool." So how can I describe this to you then? It's basically a kind of metallic finish, a single large eye made out of a camera lens, a London taxi light on their heads and the Olympic rings which are represented as friendship bracelets on their wrists. If that doesn't sound bad enough maybe we got off light because I've got to tell you about some of the ideas that got rejected, which include an anthropomorphic pigeon, an animated teapot and a big bed with arms and legs. 

LIZ	That sounds much better. I love that Jonathan Ross actually described the characters as "Looking like rollerball deodorants."
 
MAT	That's a good point they do look like that. 

LIZ	Don't they! I think, so if you're trying to get a picture that is what look like. It's quite upsetting isn't it? 

ROB	You know why they're named Wenlock and Mandeville?

MAT	Is it anything to do with Stoke Mandeville, the children’s hospital? 

ROB	Well almost. Stoke Mandeville was apparently where the Paralympics were founded. 

LIZ AND MAT	Oh!

ROB	And Much Wenlock in Shropshire was where the idea... where they had their own kind of Olympic games in the 19th Century for things like haggis toss--... no it's Shropshire isn't it with pie tossing or whatever and that gave the inspiration to revive the Olympics properly. 

LIZ	So some good stuff because they were both revealed at the same time it's not like as usual four months later we see what the Paralympics mascot is, so I guess that's good. 

MAT	But equality. 

LIZ	Yeah a bit there but is Mandeville disabled, Rob? 

ROB	I've absolutely no idea. 

MAT	He's only got one eye. 

LIZ	They jump about, in the introduction video, they jump about and then Mandeville gets in a wheelchair. So it sounds like they could be defrauding the state. 

MAT	Well you can decide for yourself listeners by going... 

LIZ	Just saying! 

MAT	You can decide for yourself by going to the 2012 website where apparently aforementioned video is viewable by all. 

LIZ	Fantastic. What is the next story? 

ROB	Can't wait. Well we're talking about football now. Obviously, with the World Cup... 

MAT	[Singing] No that's I thought it was the right noise to make. 

LIZ	You don't even like football. 

MAT	I hate it. 

ROB	You hate football don't you, both of you hate football. 

MAT	I don't hate football, I like watching a skilled game of 24 chaps and a ball. I just don't like all the talking. 

ROB	24? What game are you watching? 

MAT	Isn't that two teams? 

ROB	No, it's 22 eleven a side. 

LIZ	I thought it was seven. 

ROB	We're going to... 

MAT	That's told me. 
ROB	... have go right back to basics with you aren't we? 

MAT	So anyway, so we go on. 

ROB	Is that because you never played in school?

MAT	I played left wing once and when I couldn't throw the ball in properly I got sacked from the team. 

LIZ	Nobody picked you did they? 

MAT	No, me and the fat kid. Anyway go on. 

ROB	Well this is Manchester City fan, mum of three called Dina Nixon who suffers from a brain tumour. I mean I don't quite understand 'suffers from a brain tumour' - isn't a brain tumour something that you have and then recover from, you're not continually having a brain tumour all the time are you? 

MAT	I don't know. I suppose while you have it you're suffering with it. 

LIZ	Can I just say it's a little pedantic of you, Rob, move on with the story, come on. 

MAT	He's getting a bit OCD. 

LIZ	Do you know what I mean, Jesus. Suffers from... 

ROB	And epilepsy. Has been told that she can no longer have a ticket in the disabled section of Manchester City's stadium because she's not disabled enough. Now she claims basically the club's response is because she does not receive higher rate mobility allowance she'll have to sit elsewhere and pay an extra hundred and seventy quid. Now this is one of the good things about disabled and being into football is that you usually can get quite a whacking discount on getting into games. But no longer apparently. And Dina says, "It's because they can't see my disability. If I had a wooden leg I'd get it." And the club have... which is slightly an arcane response but what about if you had rickets or the plague? But apparently Dina's been told she can stay in the disabled section now after all but she's still got to pay the extra hundred and seventy quid so therefore paying the price of a non disabled fan for a season ticket. I think it's a bit harsh I know football clubs are in debt these days but just maybe... 

MAT	Come on. 

ROB	... pay Robinho a couple of... twenty quid less a week and you've basically covered it. 

LIZ	And you might people might want to be in the disabled area for different reasons. I mean I think... 

ROB	What to nick stuff? 

LIZ	Well ((0:17:48.6?)) stories like she wanted to be near the First Aid staff. 

ROB	Yeah that's right yeah because she was worried if she had a fit or something. 

LIZ	Yeah absolutely, there's other reasons other than you need wheelchair access isn't there. 

MAT	Yeah what you should have done is go to the Tower of London darling because I was there the other day and instead of paying seventeen quid a person, guess how much three of us got in because I was disabled? 

ROB	Probably like a fiver. 

LIZ	Three pounds? 

MAT	Total bill – two quid. 

ROB	Nice, very nice. Well I've got the double whammy you see of having a press card and a disability card so there's very little I have to pay to get into but two quid for three at the Tower of London. 

MAT	I know. 

ROB	Because that is absurdly expensive isn't it most of the time? 

MAT	So what are headlines you'd have liked to have seen then this month? 

ROB 	I'd have liked to have seen 'Gordon Brown accepting new job as monocle tester for Specsavers.' And 'Cleggaron appoints Peter White as Minister for Jolly Nice Disabled People.'

LIZ	And I have a news story this month. 

ROB	Well go on. 

LIZ	It was in Metro, the title is 'Not So Super Heroes.' Would you have believed a man could fly if Superman had been dubbed Specialman? Yes. 

ROB	Specialman!

LIZ	Yes Spiderman wouldn't have been able to do everything a spider can he'd 
have been called Spaderman. And Robocop would have worried no villains if he'd been billed as Robertcop. 

MAT	What's going on? 

LIZ	These are the super heroes that Chinese crooks have made as counterfeit. 

MAT	Okay. 

LIZ	So basically as a mistake they got the wrong names.

ROB	So when you're wearing your Addihash t-shirts you can go off and... 

LIZ	I have been in eBay look I would love a Specialman. 

MAT	[singing] Specialman. 

LIZ	So it's the translation it's absolutely fantastic that's what they've messed up on. So yes there you go I wanted to bring that to (inaudible) 

ROB	I've been Robertcop and it's been a pleasure. 

MAT	And you are a special man. 

LIZ	Aren't we all? Well no... 

MAT	Let's give him the look. 

ROB	Ah. 

MAT 	Thanks Rob. 

ROB	See you next time. 

MAT	Bye. 

[Jingle: Mat Fraser, Liz Carr bbc.co.uk/ouch]

Still to come... 

[Playing music]

Two members of unsigned act Lá Reblá Fam join us in the studio later to gloat about their upcoming Glastonbury gig. But right here beside me right now is Nikki Grahame of Big Brother fame. Welcome to our den of disability Nikki. 

NIKKI		Thank you. 

LIZ	Nikki Grahame provoked strong reactions inside and outside the house when she first burst onto our screens as a contestant on Big Brother 2006. Her strops were legendary. And some of her favourite phrases are still being used in conversation today. 

MAT	But it was only post eviction and after Nikki's fame continued to grow that she revealed her link to the world of disability. 
LIZ	Nikki's been living with an eating disorder since the age of eight and her book Dying to be Thin has just been released in paperback and she's here to tell us about it. So an eating disorder since the age of eight. 

NIKKI	I know we're going back like 20 years now back then it wasn't very common at all and people really didn't know how to deal with it. 

MAT	Especially not in kids right? 

NIKKI		No. 

MAT	I mean maybe with some sort of famous adult type people but not with children. 

NIKKI	Yeah I mean at the time the only people that I'd heard of was famous gymnast Olga Korbut and Karen Carpenter. 

MAT	That's right. 

LIZ	And what, you know, was there anything particular going on in your world at that time or did it just happen? Do you have any sense of why? 

NIKKI	Well at the time my Mum and Dad were battling with a divorce and I was in the gymnastic squad, and there was an awful lot of pressure there. And I just needed something I could control. And I found that I could control how much I ate and how much I weighed. And yeah I was good at it so I made it my ambition to starve myself to death just like Karen Carpenter did.  

MAT	When you were like not eating any of your school lunch didn't the teachers notice or the cater--... I mean didn't anyone notice and sort of try and stop it?

NIKKI	Well people did notice at school and for a long time I used to just sit in the medical room because obviously when you're not eating your brain gets starved of nutrients and it's not able to function. So I was going into the classes and not able... not being able to learn or do what the other children were doing. So I would just sit in the medical room and obviously my weight got lower and lower and eventually I was taken out of school. 

LIZ	And so once people recognised it as anorexia and once you'd got the diagnosis, what happened? You know I was reading you've been in and out of hospitals for years and years with it. 

NIKKI		Well yeah. All in all I've spent 11 years in hospital.

MAT	Wow!

NIKKI	So I got like lots of different care in lots of different places like one particular unit would offer a different strategy to another unit. And as the years went on the placements I was in the care was slightly better. But when I first was hospitalised the methods they use were just totally barbaric. 

LIZ	So what were they, if you don't mind us asking, what were the treatments, what kind of things? 

NIKKI	Well one particular placement just put me on the bed in a cubicle for three months. I had no mental stimulation, I wasn't allowed books, I wasn't allowed cuddly toys – I was nine years old. I had a 20 minute visit from my Mum. 

LIZ	Which must have been, you know, your family was going through enough anyway, you were (inaudible)... 

MAT	It sounds barbaric. 

LIZ	... incredible. 

NIKKI	And for a child that could be really damaging. And I'd have to use a bedpan and a bed bath and it was just horrendous. 

LIZ	Have things really progressed now, have they changed a lot in terms of the treatments?

NIKKI	Yeah. The last eating disorders unit I was in the care was better, they knew how to deal with people with eating disorders and we had proper psychiatric help. And we had weight gain programmes which were designed for people with eating disorders. 

MAT	You stopped treatment abruptly and began to recover in 2001. What was the actual turning point when it started to change? What was that? 

NIKKI	I actually ran away from one of the clinics I was in when I was 15. And it's the first time that I experienced the outside world because I'd been so institutionalised for 11 years that I didn't – was it 11 years, it might have been a bit less than that – but I hadn't seen the outside world, I hadn't lived in it and I got picked up by the police and put in a children's home. And I stayed there for five days and yeah it was just experiencing living with people outside of hospital, although it was for a short time, it was enough for me to think my God what am I doing? There could be a place for me outside of hospital. I want to get better and go home and experience living. So at that point obviously I got picked up by Social Services and taken back and I thought you know what I'm going to turn my back on this illness and fight to get out of hospital and go home. And I did. 

MAT	Ironic then that you should end up in Big Brother really. Bizarre institution being told what to do. 

NIKKI		Perfect for me! 

LIZ	It must have been a breeze for you in comparison? 

NIKKI		It was, I walked the audition process

LIZ	Why did you, what made you go, "You know what let's go for it, I want to do this?" What?

NIKKI	Because I had nothing to lose. I came out of hospital I had no qualifications, I've missed all my schooling. I got put in a hostel when I first came out of hospital because I couldn't live at home and, you know, I lived with people that had just... they'd leave razor blades, used razor blades and sanitary towels in the communal showers. And I lived in this place for a year and a half and it was so horrendous and I just thought there must be something better for me out there. I've got to try. I went to college and I did a course in beauty therapy and got an NVQ in that. And I just had to start life from scratch at the age of 16. I had no friends, I had nothing going for me. So going on Big Brother was like... I loved the show I'd watched every single series. 

LIZ	So you were a fan. 

NIKKI		I was a huge fan.

LIZ	So you saw the advert and you thought absolutely this is for me?

NIKKI	But there's something interesting, I applied the year Jade Goody went in and I got quite far, those were the days where you had to send in a show reel about yourself. And it was almost like an audition process where you send in a video. So I sent this in, I got called in, I actually got quite far, I got through a few stages and then I got to do the producer's talk and I told them about my past and I actually broke down while I was talking about it and got quite upset. And I didn't get called back after that. So I left it a few years and I went back and auditioned when I was 22 and yeah and I sailed through it. I thought I'm not going to tell them about my anorexia because I knew I wouldn't get in. 

LIZ	That's fascinating because I had no idea until recently that you had had anorexia, that you have it, and was really shocked because it doesn't come across in Big Brother at all, so I wanted to ask you why did you make the decision not to tell them. Wow because when you did you weren't selected by the sounds of it. 

MAT	Sounds familiar disabled listeners doesn't it? Applying for a job don't mention the disability. And we'll be hearing more from Nikki Grahame later on in the programme.
 
[Jingle: BBC.co.uk/ouch]

[Jingle: Now it's time for Vegetable, Vegetable, or Vegetable]

LIZ	It's here again to prove that contrary to popular belief a five minute phone chat and 90 seconds of cruel questioning is rarely enough time in which to guess someone's impairment.
 
MAT	And on the line this month we have Nick from Surrey. Hello Nick. 

NICK	Hi, how are you? 

MAT	I'm very well thank you despite my flippers. How about you?

NICK	I'm very well thank you.

LIZ	And you're flippers are fine? 

NICK	Hm.

LIZ	Yes okay. 

MAT	He's non committal. 

LIZ	Where are you calling from?

NICK	I'm calling from Epsom in Surrey. 

MAT	Oh Epsom in Surrey. 

LIZ	Horse racing that's all I know. 

MAT	Horse racing and fox hunting. 

NICK	Horse racing. 

MAT	And do you live next to the Beckhams?

NICK	No. 

MAT	Okay. 

NICK	I wish that means I'd have a huge house. 

MAT	It might do or it might mean that you're a squatter. What do you do Nick? 

NICK	I am a music student. 

LIZ	Do you play various instruments? 

NICK	I play one instrument. 

LIZ	And that is? 

NICK	The piano. 

LIZ	You're being coy there aren't you "I play one".

NICK 	I play one instrument. 

LIZ	But draw it out of me. Create a sense of mystery. It's a piano. 

MAT	He's got working hands then, Liz.

LIZ	What's your favourite octave?

NICK	What's my favour octave? The lower register.

LIZ	Excellent, mine too. 

MAT	What's your spread? 

NICK	A ten. 

MAT	Oh that's the distance between the little finger and the thumb isn't it?

NICK	Yeah. 

MAT	That you can spread it out. 

NICK	There are ten notes between. 

MAT	Ten note spread that's... 

LIZ	Big hands. 

MAT	... bigger than mine. 

LIZ	Is that your impairment?

MAT	Moving swiftly on. Have you seen Mandeville the Paralympic mascot Nick? 

NICK	No. 

LIZ	Good lucky you. Is that because you can't see it because you're blind?

NICK	No I can see.

LIZ	Oh sorry I'm not allowed to ask. Okay I think we'd better move on. 

MAT	He's got 20/20 vision and perfect hands. Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable is a clever disability interpretation of the parlour game Animal, Vegetable or Mineral. In the game the two hosts of the Ouch Talk Show have 90 seconds to guess what is wrong with the disabled caller on the line by asking a series of fiendishly intelligent questions. The caller must only answer ‘yes’ or ‘no’. It is both classic and therapeutic. 

LIZ	To take part in this intrusive and unpleasant game the rules clearly state you have to be disabled. Are you disabled Nick?

NICK	I am yes. 

LIZ	The quiz starts now, we've got 90 seconds. 

MAT	Do your legs work?

NICK	Yeah. 

LIZ	Do your arms work? Obviously. 

NICK	Yeah.

MAT	Can you read normal manuscript, the musicy paper? 

NICK	I can. 

LIZ	Is your hearing okay?

NICK	Yeah. 

LIZ	Have you got epilepsy? 

NICK	No. 

MAT	A skin disorder? 

NICK	No. 

LIZ	Do you take tablets on a regular basis for your condition?

NICK	No. 

MAT	Are you unpleasantly bald? 

NICK	No. 

LIZ	Have you got a veruca?

NICK	I do at the moment yes, but no that's not... 

LIZ	Have I got it? Oh okay. I've got corns by the way. 

MAT	Did you get the veruca at the special swimming pool?

NICK	It was, I got it last week and I'm really distressed by the whole situation. 

LIZ	Do you have physiotherapy? 

NICK	I don't.

LIZ	Do you have hair?

NICK	Yes. 

LIZ	Have you thought about laser treatment?

NICK	I have. 

LIZ	Okay. Ooh oh really? Are you extra hairy? 

NICK	No I'm just very vain. 

LIZ	Oh. 

MAT	You're not a piano playing wolf man then? 

LIZ	Quickly. Do you have MS? 

NICK	No.

MAT	ME?

NICK	No. 

MAT	MD?

LIZ	Dyslexia? 

NICK	No. 

MAT	Bruxlexia?

NICK	None of the above. 

MAT	Dyspraxia?

NICK	No. 

LIZ	Schmichmaxia? Pichpaxia? There are all recognised medical... 

MAT	Or do you just like foxhunting?

LIZ	Or are you just an attention seeker who wanted to call up and be part of a disability thing but you're not really disabled? 

NICK	No. 

LIZ	Oh no. 

MAT	Keep going Liz. 

NICK	You're never going to get it. 

LIZ AND MAT	Oooohhh!

NICK	See it's fighting talk now. 

MAT	Have you got a tail? 

NICK	No. 

MAT	Three nipples?

NICK	No. 

LIZ	Oh I don't know. No knee caps? [alarm sounding]

MAT	All right. 

LIZ	Oh lordy ((0:32:36.1?))

MAT	((0:32:36.1?)) Maria. 

LIZ	Nick, it's time for you to tell us what's wrong with you. 

NICK	The big reveal?

LIZ	Yeah. 

NICK	I was born without my right hand. 

MAT	Aaghh!

NICK	So when you said I'm a left hand specialist pianist so when you said about the arms and things my both arms function I'm just missing my hand and wrist of my right arm. 

MAT	So he was never lying. And when I asked about the octave of course it's big that should have been the clue, extra large span of the one existing useable hand. 
LIZ	Oh man he's mutant, he's a mutant. 

NICK	I'm a mutant pianist. 

MAT	Yeh my favourite sort. 

LIZ	Oh brilliant a one handed piano player. 

NICK	Yeah.

LIZ	Oh man. 

MAT	I have to ask this because "You a piano player?" When people find out you're a one handed piano player what's the most common question they ask?

NICK	The most common question is, "So do you just play the left hand part of a normal piece?" I'd be like, "Well no that would be dull." So no that's not what I do. So basically there's loads of left hand specialist piano repertoire which is written just for the left hand and that's what I do. 

LIZ	So you only play with your left... you don't say have a prosthesis? 

NICK	No. 

LIZ	Okay. 

NICK	So it's all literally specially written for the left hand by Ravel and Prokofiev big... 

MAT	No you're famous and everything with concerts coming up. So come on give us a quick little pluggierama but not advertising any commercial companies. 

NICK	Can I mention my website? 

MAT	Oh please do. 

LIZ	I think you can. 

NICK	Yeah. All my concerts are on my website www.nicholasmccarthy.co.uk.
MAT	Great.

NICK	And I've also done a 13 question interview obviously which is going to be on the website in a couple of days I think. 

LIZ	Oh you do know that you're going to be getting the limited edition Ouch travel mug?

NICK	I know I got told yesterday I'm fairly excited about that. 

LIZ	Really? You could put it on top of your baby grand when you're playing. 

MAT	You can sip in between playing obviously not at the same time because... 

NICK	Well no I'd have to stop playing to drink wouldn't I?

MAT	Yeah unless you have a straw. 

NICK	Unless I had a straw that's a good idea. 

LIZ	I can't believe... we almost got it. We almost... 

MAT	We were nowhere close. 

NICK	You didn't really. 

LIZ	Oh. 

MAT	No. 

LIZ	Well I like to pretend. Get you. 

MAT	I know Nick's from Surrey he's confident, he knows things. 

LIZ	Oh isn't' he? 

MAT	All right, Nick, thanks ever so much. Good luck with the concerts. 

NICK	Thank you guys, thanks a lot. 

LIZ	If you want to be the next contestant on Veg, Veg or Veg don't be shy about it, be like Nick all confident, email us now at ouch@bbc.co.uk or you could even send us a direct message on Twitter our username is BBCOuch there's no spaces. BBCOuch.

[Jingle: You could email the show ouch@bbc.co.uk]

And we're back with Big Brother's Nikki Grahame. Was it hard then being in there because the food tasks are a big part of what happens in Big Brother aren't they, you know, you're deprived of food or it's a profit and reward system in terms of... 

MAT	So did you try and like mess up the tasks so there wouldn't be any food? 

NIKKI	Oh there was a couple of occasions one of them where I think, I can't remember it was something to do with all the housemates had to do a different job, and Glyn was the house chef, we weren't allowed to eat anything unless it was prepared by Glyn. And it was awful for me because I've got all my OCD traits as well where I have to wash my hands obsessively until they're red raw before I eat, and to have him buttering my toast it was just awful. I've got a big obsession with germs so to have anyone else touch my food I just can't... it was horrendous. But it was good for me, it was really good because I had to just get on with it and do it for the other housemates.

LIZ	Without mentioning that you had anorexia? 

NIKKI	Well no everyone knew I had OCD, I couldn't go through the whole two months of being in there, everyone knew I had my own strange ways. Like I had my own mug and I wrote my name on it in nail varnish and no one was allowed to use this mug because it was Nikki's mug. 

MAT	Now your Big Brother love interest was Pete Bennett who famously has Tourettes syndrome did you feel like a disability solidarity or relation there? 

NIKKI		Yeah. 

MAT	Or was it just girl/boy stuff? 

NIKKI	No that's where in the first week me and Pete had this connection because we both had underlying issues. And that's why I kind of clicked with him. 

LIZ	I watched that, I mean I was a fan of Big Brother and also your spin-off - you did a series called Princess Nikki - because you've been talking about the OCD and this can you explain about Princess Nikki and how that came about. 

NIKKI	They basically lined me up for a load of jobs which they knew would get my back up i.e., working in a sewage works for the day or... 

MAT	Why? That's like torture for you.

NIKKI	It was torture and it was pretty rotten filming the show. Some bits were quite fun like working in a dog kennel, that was quite fun. And the mountain rescuing. They just wanted me to lose my temper I think so it would be funny to watch. 

LIZ	Why did you do it, Nikki? 

NIKKI	Because I actually thought that I'd be doing jobs that I would enjoy like wedding planner or floristry – things like that but I suppose it was all banter at the end of the day and a lot of people did find the show enjoyable. 

LIZ	And you could cope with it, it wasn't that bad?

NIKKI	Yeah. There were bits where I did try and quit the show but there was a lot of money at stake. 
MAT	Oh because I was about to ask so it was more about the money or the therapy? Because it could have been a bit of like forcing yourself to be... 

NIKKI		I'd say it was... 

MAT	(inaudible) therapy? 

NIKKI		Yeah a bit of both. It didn't do me any harm to get my hands dirty. 

MAT	With the cash. 

NIKKI		No with the dog poo and with the human poo. 

LIZ	So you're looking really well now. So how are you now and how do you cope with the anorexia on a day to day basis now? Are you well from it or are you still recovering from it? How do you feel? 

MAT	You see I actually don't know is it something you can get better from or is it something like alcoholism that you're always living with? 

NIKKI	A lot of people do actually recover from anorexia but I think I was quite a critical case and to have it to the extent that I had it I think it's something that I'm actually going to live with for the rest of my life. And I do dip in and out of it depending on what I'm going through at the time. Unfortunately I've lost a stone in the past year and I'm trying to put that weight back on. I'm seeing a dietician at the moment. And I had a referral to St. Vincent's Square which is an eating disorders outpatient clinic where I can go and get therapy. So yeah I'm waiting to see someone there. But it's important for me that I keep it in check because sometimes it is easy to slip back into it. Not to the extent, not ever to the extent how it was. And I would never, ever, ever allow myself to be hospitalised again because there's just too much life out there and I've wasted enough time being in hospital. I've turned my life around since coming out of hospital and overcoming like the majority of my anorexia and I never want to go back to that to the extent that it was.  

LIZ	What made you write the book? 

NIKKI	Well writing that book was something I always needed to do. And even if I hadn't gone on Big Brother I would have written that book. It was really cathartic for me because all the years I was ill I had therapy but I shunned it because I didn't want to get better. So writing that book for me was like therapy it was really cathartic and it was drawing a line under it. 

MAT	That's good. In the book because one of the things about different impairments is they can have an impact on your body the longer you have them like I'm pretty arthritic in the hands because I overuse them and I've got little ones. What kind of effect does long term anorexia have on the body? 
NIKKI	Well unfortunately anorexia can really damage your body. Years of starving myself I actually I stopped growing when I was 11 and I've never had a period in my whole life. 

MAT	Oh wow!

NIKKI	I can't have children and I developed osteoporosis. I've got it in both hips and I've got acute osteoporosis in my spine which, you know, it's a worry for me. Everyday like when I wear heels, if I get drunk and I fall over if it's a bad fall I could be in a wheelchair. It's had so much long term damage which is irreparable and it does sadden me but that's why I want to get the word out there and just say, you know, it may be one thing to be thin but look what you could do in the long term and that is undoable.
 
MAT	Okay. Thank you Nikki. Because you've really bared your soul to us there. 

LIZ	Absolutely yeah. 

MAT	Very appreciated. And a lot of people who are beginning to experience this or who have experienced this who are listening I'm sure will get a lot from it, so thank you very much. 

NIKKI	And thank you very much. 

[Jingle: You're listening to the Ouch Talk show].

MAT	Liz I had rather a glamorous time recently but that led to a disability thing that I wanted to tell you about. 

LIZ	Okay. Why glamorous? - what have you been up to? 

MAT	Glamorous because by association Julie, my girlfriend my fiancée now, listeners, was in a film called Tournee a French film with (inaudible) he's like the French George Clooney apparently. And it got official selection for the Palme d'Or at Cannes. So she excitedly insisted to brush down my suit and I'd be her 'arm candy' as she put it on the red carpet. As it turned out I was just on the sidelines holding her coat and bag for most of the day, but that was fine. It was terribly glamorous I got to see film stars and directors and all that, obviously from the sidelines. Anyway it was like the one official photo call to another and it was banks of paps I mean seven high, 25 across all paparazzis all shouting "Over here, over here" in their funny French accents. Anyway this is the disability bit; one of the paps was a wheelchair user. Now I've never seen that before.  

LIZ	Wow!

MAT	And we'd got to some pretty tricky places and in the back of my mind was how did he get here you know. But because he was a wheelchair user and because media people are kind of I suppose, certainly at the surface, disability friendly and it was a weird thing he got some of the best shots right, because everyone turned round and gave their special pose for him. And indeed when I was doing... I'm the supportive boyfriend of photography stuff with Julie I was like, "Oh come on let's make sure we do a special one for him" and everything. So that was all great and we left feeling, "Oh isn't it nice things are moving on, they're changing" you know. Anyway went home, she stays in Cannes comes back a couple of days later. "Did you see that photographer?" "Yes" "And he tried to get off with me. He made a pass at me, a really overt pass and tried to nab me." And I'm like, "Huh what?" Now here's my question, Liz.

LIZ	Okay. 

MAT	Did he think a) she does cripples so I might have a chance? b) If she does people with disability she's got no standards therefore even I might get in there? Or, I just don't know what, am I being a silly bloke just going, "Get off my lass." But have you ever come across this because a bit of me is angry with him but another bit of me is like well actually we never think that it's going to be okay if we can approach those glamorous babes which she must have looked like to him on the red carpet. And is it actually okay that he felt confident enough to make a pass at her. Is that disability something? I'm all confused, Liz, help me out.

LIZ	Well it's very flattering isn't it? But maybe you gave him confidence, maybe he didn't think he ever stood a chance with someone as glamorous as Julie or somebody like that. And that seeing that she was with a disabled person it's kind of like oh maybe, maybe. But on the other hand what I think you absolutely hit the nail on the head the thing that you said that I thought, "Ah yeah" is you know I know in the past myself and friends have gone for people that we know have been out with another disabled person. 

MAT	Because we might not have to go through all that embarrassment stuff at the beginning of it. 

LIZ	Absolutely. 

MAT	Because they do our sort anyway. 

LIZ	Absolutely. It's like "Oh right we've been through that. I don't have to weed them out, I know that they’re probably not a fetishist (inaudible) I know that they're probably okay, I know that their reasons are about attraction and love and the right things rather than you know a bit weirdy stuff." And I think that is really common. So I would not be surprised if it was well if she's the type to go with him. 

MAT	But then, on the other hand, where's the sort of disabled bloke's solidarity then? 

LIZ	No yeah. 

MAT	Because you know I'd expect a little bit more respect, mate! But I'm all confused, it's really done my head in. It's like it's really hard isn't it? 

LIZ	Do you know what as well, I mean I know it does have a disability link, but in some respects maybe it doesn't okay? We're giving it a disability link. 

MAT	That's what I'm saying am I just being a bloke about this? 

LIZ	Well you know he's a wheelchair user so it has a disability link in that sense. Maybe he's just being a bloke and kind of like "I like her, that's who I want I'm going for it." Do you know what I mean? Maybe he's a complete... maybe he goes for what, you know, maybe he goes for whoever he wants kind of thing. So maybe it's no more than that. I was actually more interested anyway in when you were saying that there's a disabled guy who's a paparazzi and thinking how does he get non obvious shots? 

MAT	Yeah crawling through the undergrowth. 

LIZ	Do you know what I mean? 

MAT	[squeaking noise] 

LIZ	Forgive me, could you just tip my chair back onto the curb and can I just take a picture of you while you're at it. But I love it and I love also that he presumably uses it and gets to the front. 

MAT	Totally! And the thing was I watched him on another couple of sessions because it's like being a festival that you're in and out or at a wedding or a funeral you know you've only got your ten minutes. And every lot all did their special favouring the disability photographer type shot. He must have the best photos from Cannes this year I reckon. 

LIZ	But let's hope he doesn't have to use public transport, can you imagine. "Sorry I'll be there to get those exclusive shots in a couple of days but I've got to ring in advance for my bus." 

MAT	Oh boy. So what's been going with you while I've been gallivanting around the south of France? 

LIZ	I love it. You gallivant round the south of France I go up to The Wirral where my parents are from. 

MAT	Eh? 

LIZ	Eh Wirral queen it's true. 

MAT	The Wirral it's the posh bit of Liverpool, listeners, for those of you that don't know. 

LIZ	It's the Wirral Peninsula. 

MAT	The Wirral Peninsula oh the Wirral Peninsula.

LIZ	But I went up there the reason I wanted to talk about it for the first time I think ever in my life I went around my local area on public transport. I know this doesn't sound dramatic. 

MAT	That's impossible. 

LIZ	Well firstly I mean it's only in recent years it's become that. But of course growing up as a crip child my parents would take me everywhere. Transport wasn't accessible, the school bus wasn't accessible so if I went anywhere it was Mum and Dad taking me there. So there would also be places they wouldn't take me to because that's not where a decent girl goes, you'd keep out of the rough areas so it was the first time I actually went and used like the local train station. The first time that I could get a train over to Liverpool or get a bus on my home territory and I felt sort of naughty. 

MAT	You feel like a naughty 13 year old. 

LIZ	Yes. And I sort of felt what maybe kids feel when they're a teenager to be perfectly honest. 

MAT	Inexplicably wanting a cigarette. 

LIZ	Yes what it is? Let's go and do something behind the tree, do you know what I mean? 

MAT	Yeah. 

LIZ	And then I got a train back from Liverpool over to see my parents and like half eleven/twelve at night. 

MAT	((gasps))

LIZ	I know. 

MAT	Were they sitting up waiting for you? 

LIZ	Do you know what, they were to the point that the living room curtains were still open so that they could look out. 

MAT	Oh my God. 

LIZ	Because they were... and they were expecting me to call a cab or to call them to pick me up from the station. I'm thinking oh my God I feel like I'm 14. But I never had that, this is the first time I'd ever done that. And I just wondered for you, I know it's a total different impairment and all that, but was there anything that you were not allowed to do and a freedom you weren't allowed to have as a kid, were you protected, were you stopped from doing stuff?

MAT	Unfortunately I was brought up by actors, one of whom was gay, so it was a pretty bohemian and liberal lifestyle. 

LIZ	Okay so anything went. 

MAT	Anything went. To the point where once at primary school fancy dress competition I declared I wanted to go as a boxer. Without a beat they just provided me with my gloves. Now imagine looking at a man with no arms and boxing gloves stuck on his shoulders, because that's what I looked like. And I gaily went around you know ((boxing)) and they were happy smiling there thinking well if it makes him happy. So I am brought back to that time I was in Bourton On The Water though holidaying. And this little wheelchair using kid came up to me and I had just been on telly, I'm not giving it large, but all it was about was the fact that he was a confident crip coming up to somebody he'd seen on TV who he thought was cool because they'd been on TV, because you know what kids are like. And it was so like wow that would never have happened when I was a kid never. 

LIZ	Did he want to sleep with your girlfriend? 

MAT	Yeah, yeah he did, he tried to get off with her. 

LIZ	Oh that's probably why he came up to you then. 

MAT	Hm I pushed him in the river. 

LIZ	Yeah nice. 

[Jingle: You're listening to the Ouch Talk Show with Mat Fraser and Liz Carr]

MAT	You know what, listeners, it would be the Ouch talk show if it didn't finish up with a track from an unsigned disabled musician. 

LIZ	Wow. So we've got a member of the ska punk rock band Lá Reblá Fam Simon Suspense Spencer joining us on the line on a mobile phone in a tube station, so apologies if quality's not great. Simon?

SIMON	Hello. 

LIZ	Hello there, thank you for joining us. 

SIMON	No problem at all. 

LIZ	Lá Reblá Fam means what? 

SIMON	Well we basically thought it was like the rebel family but apparently when translated it means a woman's dream. So we could get done for false advertising on that one. 

MAT	No I'm sure you're both. Now what's the bands disability connection? 

SIMON	The bands disability connection is myself: I have Cerebral Palsy. 

LIZ	Are you the only disabled person, the only crip in the band? 

SIMON	Some may beg to differ. 

LIZ	Excellent. And look where are you based and what type of music? 

SIMON	It's kind of like a mismatch of punk, ska, hip-hop, rock. 

MAT	It kind of reminds of like festival music from the early '90s when I was involved, a little bit rough, rough and ready that kind of style, would you agree with that? 

SIMON	Yeah most definitely. 

LIZ	So Lá Reblá Fam you're going to be performing at Glastonbury in the hub which is fantastic. 

MAT	When I used to go to Glastonbury there used to be me and Mick Scarlett who were the only people there that were visibly disabled. But since Attitude is Everything have been on the case and along with ((inaudible)) and everything apparently now there's like a whole hub disability friendly area is that right? 

SIMON	Apparently so. I'm going to find out this year most definitely. 

LIZ	We're going to be playing out with a track called The Animals and could you tell the listeners what it's about? 

SIMON	Okay. Basically the track called The Animals it's about the credit crunch and the recession and it's basically how you would see businessmen like leaving everything, it's basically just about the whole state of London at that time. So yeah.
 
LIZ	We knew it had a bit of meat to it, a bit of political bite to it and it's a great track so we'll be playing that the end. So it's Lá Reblá Fam you can see them at Glastonbury and all their details are going to be on the Ouch website as ever. Thanks very much Simon for joining us. 

SIMON	Thank you very much. 

LIZ	The end of the show, Mat, what a show!

MAT	I know. 

LIZ	Fantastic interview with Nikki from Big Brother. 

MAT	I was really impressed with her. To be honest, I will say this now, now that she's gone, I didn't really think anorexia was a proper disability but boy have I learnt to eat my words. 

LIZ	Huc-hum. 

MAT	Get it? 

LIZ	It was stunning. Excellent – not the joke – the interview. 

MAT	No the joke was dreadful. 

LIZ	That's all I'm saying. Well yeah it's been a great month so thank you for the team who made it happen. It's been Emma Tracey, Zoe Breen and Amy Gardner. The studio manager was Drew Lecky and we'll be back next month. In the meantime watch out the Ouch homepage because from the end of this month at bbc.co.uk/ouch there are some very exciting video interviews featuring people like Tricia Goddard, Gail Porter and Blaine Harrison from the Mystery Jets. 

MAT	And now we play out a track with the scar punk rock from Lá Reblá Fam called The Animals.

LIZ	Until next month bye!

[Playing music]