Ouch Podcast #56 – October 2010
bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast

Presented by Mat Fraser and Liz Carr

The Ouch Podcast is a download from the BBC. For more information, and our terms of use, go to bbc.co.uk/ouch.

LIZ	Thanks for downloading the show, this is the first of two podcasts for October. Aren't we spoiling you this month wow! Hold on to your iPods though because Mat Fraser is back.
 
MAT	Yeah and it's so good to be back, Liz, with you my favourite co-host. Rob Crossan will be here to enlighten us on the latest weird disability news later and we have Shannon Murray the model, not the girl who went through that weird pretend kidnap by her mum up north. She's fronting Debenhams's autumn clothes range.

LIZ	That plus our chat and your emails. 

[Jingle: From the BBC in London it's the Ouch Talk Show with Mat Fraser and Liz Carr]

MAT	Liz, is it easier to be a disabled man or a disabled woman? 

LIZ	You come in with quite the question haven't you? You've been away for three months and now you ask me that. Why this need for battle of the sexes? 

MAT	Well it's just that it occurs to me that crip or not crip it's still a man's world and I was actually... I've been going through a lot of woes, oh me and my poor disabled self, because I'm decorating my new flat at the moment, and there are a lot of disability issues. Then I suddenly thought no come on you're complaining away but it's still probably worse for a disabled woman. And I just thought we should talk about that. Is it what? 

LIZ	Oh goodness, well it's very hard because I'm not a disabled man so I don't know but I guess it's all very hard being a disabled woman isn't it. I mean you've got all that pressure, all that pressure on how you should look. 

MAT	Men have got pressure too. 

LIZ	Well that's, you know, either talk about this trying for it not to sound like an essay, you know, on these are the finer points, but yeah I think there are huge, huge pressures more than ever on how you look, what you wear and all that stuff about having accessible clothing that's comfortable. 

MAT	Yeah. Then you put on top of that men have got to fashionable too and have moisturiser and have to care what they look like, whereas before they didn't have to care what they looked like. I suppose that's filtering down now to disabled men as well. 

LIZ	Yeah.

MAT	So we've got that pressure too now. 

LIZ	But then I was reading something that was... 

MAT	To look alluring. 

LIZ	There's a film out in the UK called 'Made in Dagenham'. 

MAT	Yeah I've seen that. 

LIZ	Yeah about the equal pay act. 

MAT	That's right yes. 

LIZ	And I'm thinking and there was a question today in the papers sort of saying has anything changed for women, are they still paid the same as men and of course in things like Wimbledon they're not, and as presenters they're not earning different things.

MAT	What you mean you get less than me? 

LIZ	Yes I do. 

MAT	You're kidding. 

LIZ	I only get tuppence. No I don't... 

MAT	But I get £4,000 a second. 

LIZ	No this isn't a Chris Moyles moment where I go, the UK presenter is going, "I didn't get paid" no it's not that. 

MAT	I'm glad it's not a Chris Moyles moment because I'm not a big fan of that gentleman. However, if he was disabled I'd be a little more understanding of his inadequacies. 

LIZ	But what I'm thinking is if women still aren't getting paid equally, and they're not...

MAT	And they should be. 

LIZ	Then that's going to reflect on disabled women, so we've got that, not double burden, but if you know what I mean?

MAT	Ah the double burden. The double burden not enough to have the curse every month is it. Actually that's a point. 

LIZ	Oh don't go about that let's not talk about that. 

MAT	What my mother calls the curse. 

LIZ	Eh, eh getting a PA to put a tampon in. Oh dear I don't think so. 

MAT	Well I was at a workshop, well I shouldn't have been at the workshop, for thalidomide, yes I'm back listeners! 

LIZ	Oh are we going to talk about thalidomide I wish I had my thalidomide bell – kerching!

MAT	Flipper, flipper, flipper, flipper and they put them in with their feet if they've got short arms. 

LIZ	Really? Have you seen the amount that my legs bend?

MAT	Actually yes that's a good point. 

LIZ	You'd need like a three foot tampon. Sorry I'll move on.

MAT	Dot, dot on that I think. Yes can we not talk about... 

LIZ	I always, you know what, growing up and moving was really tough and reaching I was very sore, I was very stiff, I wasn't very well. And I used to think that being a man must be great because going to the toilet was such a hassle that I thought, you know, if you can just... 

MAT	All right, well let's talk about it we're all adults here. 

LIZ	Yeah. Well... 

MAT	It's actually quite hard to stand up undo the bits get out what needs to be got out, point it in the right direction, get everything that needs to leave your body to go in the receptacle required and then put it all back without making a mess. 

LIZ	Yeah but if you're a disabled guy and you can't move can't you just whip it out, get it into a bottle and do it there and then. Whereas if you're a woman you've got to sort of crouch down and get it right under do you know what I'm saying? 

MAT	Well I don't know about the listening chaps but I've always found it rather hard to get mine into the neck of a beer bottle. 

LIZ	But you see you do that I have so many disabled mates, I have one mate in particular that usually has a bottle of what I used to think was ginger ale at the side... 

MAT	Uh ho!

LIZ	... of his sofa. 

MAT	Don't drink the ginger ale at his house. 

LIZ	No it's not. It's like "Oh my god". 

MAT	Don't drink the warm lager I know. 

LIZ	No wonder I don't drink. 

MAT	I think that probably is more difficult though because you've got more gubbins. 

LIZ	Unless you get a SheWee one of those things. 

MAT	A SheWee?

LIZ	Yeah I'm sure that there are other assistive weeing as a woman things to buy on the market but they are... 

MAT	Whoa I'm trying to get it above the trouser line here, above the belt line. 

LIZ	Oh okay. 

MAT	Can I add a module? 

LIZ	Go on. 

MAT	Homosexuality. 

LIZ	I knew you'd... I knew. 

MAT	Because I've got a bit of a bugbear. 

LIZ	Okay. 

MAT	Okay and I'm going to say it like I think it... 

LIZ	Go on. 

MAT	... hopefully not being offensive to any communities listening, okay. 

LIZ	The fact that you just said 'communities' why don't you use the word 'issues' and get it all out there, go on. 

MAT	Right. I think it's been my limited experienced observation in life that one of the most accepting communities of disability have been gay women, and one of the least accepting communities of disabilities have been gay men. 

LIZ	How do you mean?

MAT	Discuss. 

LIZ	I'm not quite sure what you mean – least accepted by other people? 

MAT	No. So I find gay women often are... I have seen a lot of gay women who are having relationships with disabled gay women. And I've seen very few gay men who have relationships with disabled men. 

LIZ	Oh why do you think that is? 

MAT	Don't know a part of the culture maybe I don't know. Would you agree or not? 

LIZ	I don't know. You've really got me thinking now. 

MAT	Listeners, we need your opinions on that one. 

LIZ	Do you think that's true, yeah.

MAT	So I don't want to be, I'm not you know I know I live in London where there's a higher proportion of out gay people on the streets than there might be in your small village etc. Sorry I said village and gay in the same sentence, I didn't mean to. What's wrong? Oh you've got chocolate flecks on your knuckle.

LIZ	I'm drinking a hot chocolate as we're having this discussion, listeners, and it actually looks like I've got poo... 

MAT	Don't say it. 

LIZ	... everywhere. It looks like an incontinent dream. I'm just licking it off so that's fine. Anyway, no if you are the only gay disabled person in the village let us know, let us know what that's like. I have no idea it's an interesting one. I'm thinking when I tell my mum that I was going out with a woman she said to me, is this a consequence of being disabled and you don't get the same opportunity. That's what I thought you were going to say, I think it's an interesting one that sometimes if you're gay and disabled people's assumption is you're that way because you couldn't get somebody of your own...

MAT	There's such a flurry of issues all swirling around this I feel it's important to remind the listeners that if you do want to comment it's ouch@bbc.co.uk thanks very much.

LIZ	Have I got any chocolate around my mouth? The Ouch Talk Show is available from the BBC website as a podcast. If you have iTunes, Juice or any other podcast software you can subscribe to our feed and have it downloaded to your computer or mp3 player every time a new show becomes available. It's so easy. Go to bbc.co.uk/podcast and you'll find us under entertainment. 

MAT	ENTERTAINMENT! So the BBC thinks disability's entertaining do they? That's outrageous I'm going to write to an MP. 

LIZ	Rob Crossan's here with this month's disability news. Hello, Rob. 

ROB	Hello Liz. Hello Mat. 

MAT	Hi. 

ROB	I do want to do the news but I just wanted to tell you a little albino anecdote. 

LIZ	Really?

MAT	Oh great. 

LIZ	Why would that be? 

ROB	Well it was the most bizarre interpretation of what albinism is that I've ever, ever encountered, it was fantastic. I was in the Czech Republic doing a travel story last week in a little town called Czechy Krumlov lots of... yeah it's the name. Lots of strange American coach parties buzzing around and I got collared by one in a coffee shop while I was trying to order some dumplings and fend off a prostitute... 

LIZ	As is common in the Czech Republic. 

ROB	Yeah that's the way I play the game anyway. And they came over to me and we had started talking and they saw me looking at the menu very, very closely. And they said, "Is there something wrong with your eyes?" And I said, "Well yeah I'm an albino." And their initial first question was, "Isn't it awful not being able to eat meat?" And it took a while to figure out why on earth they made this connection but it turns out that they obviously knew that rabbits had albinos... rabbits can be albinos, rabbits being vegetarians they therefore thought that human beings albinos were also non carnivorous. 

MAT	Oh I thought it was their rather uneducated assumption from the American culture that if you don't eat lots of red meat you become an albino. 

ROB	What it actually comes over time? 

MAT	Yeah. 

ROB	After being a student and eating pot noodles.

MAT	Peddled by the beef industry in America. 

ROB	Well that would have been probably more forgivable if they'd said that. But the idea that somehow because rabbit albinos eat lettuce therefore only I can eat lettuce. 

MAT	Did the prostitute then turn to them and say, "He's not a rabbit look at his dumplings."

ROB	"He wants meat can't you tell." Anyway it was a peculiar experience and yeah it made me... my opinion of Americans is never high but ((0:09:41.8?)) to new depths. 

MAT	There is an American that we all as disabled people respect and hold on high as a deity, Mr Stevie Wonder, and apparently you've got a story about him. 

ROB	I do. Well this is the strange trajectory of Stevie Wonder's political targets for becoming more and more cranky over the decades. If you remember some of his music from the early '70s there was 'You Haven't Done Nothing' real good black panther consciousness kind of stuff. Then also in the '80s it was 'Don't Drive Drunk' and now... 

MAT	He should talk. 

ROB	Yeah, what the driving or the drinking? 

MAT	Both. 

ROB	Probably the driving I would say. 

MAT	He's well known. 

ROB	Well known boozer. 

MAT	No driver. 

ROB	And now he did a talk at the World Intellectual Property Organisational Conference, a couple of weeks ago, not very rock & roll where he went on a bit of a rant about the fact that so many copyright laws are in place which means that people can't get accessible books, i.e., audio book translations and things like that. And he threatened that if they don't do something about it and relax these copyright laws so that more books can be made accessible to blind and visually impaired people he's going to write a song about it. 

LIZ	Oh I can't wait to listen to that. 

MAT	Hold on! Hold your horses. 

LIZ	Wow!

ROB	[singing]  I'll be strong...

MAT	To say what? 

ROB	Yeah. [singing] "Can I have some accessible reading material?" 

MAT	No. 

ROB	It doesn't quite stand does it? 

MAT	No. But like at Glastonbury recently, didn't he not do a massive rant about rights for disabled people and access. 

ROB	Yeah he went on one. 

MAT	He's got really ranty in his old age. 

ROB	Well it annoys me because I think there's a lot of parallels, and stay with me on this one, there's a lot of parallels between him and David Blunkett who when Stevie Wonder was at the peak of his powers in the '70s like when David Blunkett was at the peak of his political powers... 

MAT	Getting your point. 

ROB	... didn't do disability, didn't do it, but now they're kind of past it a bit they're thinking oh it looks like there's a bit of a gap in the schedules maybe I can do a bit of disability stuff now. And you just kind of wonder... 

LIZ	Good point. 

ROB	... how much more power or benefit could they have had to people with disabilities if Stevie had been going on about it in the '70s or David Blunkett had been going on about it in the late '90s rather than now. So yeah I think it's kind of a little too little too late. 

MAT	Banged to rights on that one. Banged to rights. Absolutely agree with you. 

LIZ	Love it. Rob, 'Robo Crip'? 

ROB	Oh this is brilliant. We'll have to put a video and some pictures of it on the website. 

MAT	I've got the picture here. 

ROB	You've got a picture already have you? Well this is the new Rex the exoskeleton.

MAT	It looks so scary.

ROB	It's terrifying isn't it, it's absolutely terrifying. It's basically a, well it's a real life pair of robotic legs. 

MAT	It looks, listeners, like a bloke in the massive-ist galoshes ever, doesn't it? 

ROB	Yeah. 

LIZ	Galoshes how English are you? Who's going to know that unless you've read Wind in the Willows nobody will know?

MAT	Explain quickly explain galoshes, Liz, to the foreign listeners. 

LIZ	Aren't they like big boot things.

MAT	That goes up to your bottom. 

ROB	You go fishing in them. You wade in them out into the river. 

MAT	Waders. Any sorry please I've interrupted, go on with the story. 

ROB	No, no, no it's quite alright it needed to be said. I'm so glad we can clarify the English Lexicon we interpret for foreign listeners. So basically there terrifying frankly pair of robotic legs enables people who can't walk to stand up, walk around and go up and down stairs very, very slowly should I add. This is the prototype it was invented in New Zealand and it's around in 2011. And Damon, the producer, told me Liz that you actually want one of these, which I find quite surprising because I thought you were a bit of a militant who thought that sitting down's better than standing up. 

LIZ	Yeah. But don't you think it would be cool to be like a human transformer?

ROB	I've never wanted to be a human transformer. 

LIZ	Really? 

ROB	It looks so heavy. And just imagine the amount of staring you'd get I just can't be doing with it. 

MAT	You've gone from four wheels good, two legs bad to two legs better. Just like Napoleon the pig in Animal Farm.

ROB	... the biggest Orwellian dystopia that Liz Carr inhabits. 

LIZ	But can you imagine people's look. I mean you said you wouldn't want to be stared at, I mean use it for the novelty and use it for the freak value rather than oh I'd like to get from A to B, oh my goodness isn't this amazing. 

MAT	I'm just getting a message from the producer in my ears, sorry, Rob apparently you're banging your oversized, if I may say, elbows on the table and it's disturbing... 

ROB	It's not me!

MAT	Well it's not me my elbows don't even reach the table. 

LIZ	No. Look I'm going to do mine now okay, this is mine. 

MAT	Liz's elbows on the table. 

LIZ	Okay my bony little bows. 

MAT	Right. Now followed by the thalidy little ones. 

ROB	And now followed by an able bodied elbow. 

LIZ	There you go, point made! Flaunting your strength in front of us. Look at you.

MAT	The table's cracked. 

ROB	I can see me crush a Dundee cake with my bare hands, it's amazing. 

MAT	Anyway, back to robo cop, crip. 

ROB	Robo Crip the Rex the exoskeleton. Yeah it's going to be available next year.  

MAT	How much? 

ROB	Doesn't say. A lot I would imagine.  

LIZ	Every child will want one for Christmas I'm telling you. 

ROB	It's one of those things that you can imagine being really good fun in an addition of Robot Wars or... 

LIZ	that's it. 

ROB	... maybe for a kind of fun thing to do like a segway, you know something fun to play around on a stag do. 

LIZ	He died didn't he? 

ROB	Who? 

LIZ	The segway... 

MAT	The segway guy. 

ROB	The segway guy. 

LIZ	It's hysterical. 

ROB	That's his name. 

MAT	No the guy that invented the segway was testing out the off-road one, he went so far off road he went over the cliff and died. No it happened recently, it's true. 

LIZ	The segway... 

MAT	They're going to ban it. 

LIZ	... you sort of stand on them and they wheel along. 

MAT	It's what the cops use in Chicago. 

LIZ	Like scooters aren't they? The best headline, I have to tell you this though, Rob, love your headlines I found one, it's not really disability related unless you think that Cliff Richard is disabled, and many would say he is, so he's 70 right? And he's just done a topless calendar for 2011. Apparently he does it all the time, right? 

ROB	Hold me back. 

LIZ	And he looks amazing, he's much like yourself, Mat, he looks really good for his age. And the headline was 'Muscle Tone and Wine'. 

ROB	Ooh you punmeister you. 

LIZ	Instead of 'Mistletoe and Wine'. 

ROB	Oh you've ruined it now. You don't explain it after, you're supposed to be a stand up comedian is that what you do?

MAT	If the comedian has to explain the joke you know it's over. 

ROB	I just want to say, ladies and gentlemen, that was an idiom and it kind of ruins the gag, Liz. Back to school, back to school. 

MAT	It occurs to me that Rex, robo crip leggy thing is just another extreme sport from New Zealand isn't it? 

ROB	Well they love it don't they. That's what you want, you want to be able to bungee jump with a segway and an exoskeleton attached to you. This is what I would like to see most of all. 

LIZ	Oh but the weight that you'd have. 

ROB	Well you're probably not going to come back are you? 

MAT	I can't wait for the next James Bond film because they always use a new gadget in the film don't they? They'll be some reason why he can't use his legs and then he'll get into it gee, gee, gee, gee up the stairs. 

LIZ	You normally bring a scooter related or a benefit fraud story, Rob, I don't know if you saw that this week there was a bit of a clip that somebody took on their mobile phone of a guy in a mobility scooter carrying a roll of carpet width-ways

MAT	I saw that on one of the tabloids yeah. 

LIZ	Yeah and it's like caused a huge... 

MAT	It's like twenty foot across isn't it?

LIZ	Yes. He fills like the road with it. 

ROB	Even the most able bodied people would struggle. 

LIZ	Absolutely. 

ROB	Not that we're saying he's not able bodied, he clearly is. 

LIZ	And they're saying that the normal rules for road haulage don't apply to scooters. 

ROB	Well that's just taking the, you know. 

LIZ	Is Rob staying with us Damon?

MAT	I hope so. 

LIZ	Damon? 

MAT	Dames?

LIZ	We're asking the producer. Damon? 

MAT	Rob's got to go. 

LIZ	Is he staying?

MAT	I wanted him to stay. I wanted you to stay. 

ROB	Yeah I know well we haven't bantered for ages have we?

MAT	No it's nice to see you, you're looking well, married life suiting you? 

ROB	Ha I'm getting divorced. 

MAT	No wow! 

LIZ	Anyway see you next time, Rob. 

ROB	So on that bombshell. I'm not going out on that, no way. 

MAT	Okay. 

ROB	I've got to see a solicitor in an hour. 

MAT	Find something better quickly. You're really looking really healthy, Bob... um Bob!

ROB	Bob?

MAT	You've thrown me now. 

ROB	And the marriage is going great. 

MAT	No you are looking well though. 

ROB	Yeah thank you very much. 

MAT	Oi you pay attention!  If you have a question or predicament that's burning a hole in your brain and you'd like us to help then email the show now ouch@bbc.co.uk that's ouch@bbc.co.uk if you don't you might explode – fact. 

LIZ	We have Shannon Murray with us. Hello, Shannon. 

SHANNON	Hello Liz. Hello Mat. 

MAT	Hi there. Gosh the glamour in the room just tripled exponentially.  

LIZ	I know. Wheelchair using model that's what you were described as. Is that how you describe yourself, Shannon? 

SHANNON	It's not the first thing that comes to mind, no. I can think of many words to describe myself but I don't think I'll say them on air. 

MAT	I've got a question for you. 

SHANNON	Oh God yes. 

MAT	It's an email from Josie and I think you can help. "Dear Ouch team, when it is proper to go barefoot in a wheelchair? I'll take advice from anyone please." 

SHANNON	Okay. 

MAT	Burning issue this one isn't it? 

LIZ	Really it is. 

SHANNON	Yeah. I think that can vary from disability to disability. It depends does she have pressure marks that she might get from the footplate on her chair because that's always a consideration when you go barefoot in a chair. 

MAT	What a cosmetic consideration like what it looks like or is it how it feels or something or is it dangerous? 

SHANNON	It depends if she's got sensation because a lot of footplates are metal and some of them have screws in them. So if you've got no sensation and you've got your feet bare on the footplate all day you can end up with a pressure mark that you're not aware of. So that would then lead to obviously a few other issues you don't want to consider. 

MAT	So it's a health thing. 

SHANNON	That's a health thing. Cosmetically it also depends what your feet look like, have you had a pedicure recently or are they full of calluses and hard skin. 

LIZ	But, Shannon, right you know what I'm thinking and I don't know if this is what our listener means, you know those cripples that just wear socks, okay, they don't wear shoes. 

MAT	Why wear shoes you're never going to use them. 

LIZ	Well no exactly. 

SHANNON	No but there are certain people who, you know, because of their disability their feet might not get into a shoe, so they have to wear the socks. 

LIZ	Oh there's always a shoe big enough isn't there – a specially made one. 

SHANNON	I don't know. I've seen some... 

LIZ	Really? 

SHANNON	... where they wear big thick socks for a reason. 

MAT	Doctor Martens, oh sorry branding. Big boots that are popular. 

SHANNON	Yeah but some people have got slightly, slightly misshapen feet that can't get into a shoe so they have to wear a big thick sock. 

MAT	Okay. I mean... 

SHANNON	Otherwise they're going to get cold feet or they might bang their foot. 

MAT	But some of them might not feel how cold the foot is though.

SHANNON	Yeah that doesn't mean they're not going to end up with problems later that could end up getting them to hospital. 

MAT	Another health issue. 

SHANNON	Exactly. It's the health issues. 

LIZ	There's a listener from Australia, Stella Young, I don't know if you know Stella, 

MAT	Stella!

SHANNON	Well she's going to have warmth so she can go barefoot whenever she likes. 

LIZ	Well no, no she was saying... 

MAT	You say that but... 

LIZ	This is true. But she was saying, she was commenting the other day on Facebook that she had seen somebody, a wheelchair user in one of those, what do you call them, like sleeping bag all in one cosy little thing.

SHANNON	Oh God those things that go over you in a chair that makes you look like a baby in a pram. 

LIZ	Yeah. And she said... 

MAT	Or a worm.

LIZ	... she said and don't even get me started on those cripples that just wear socks. 

MAT	But you're a model, Shannon, you should know about this, what do you say about it? 

SHANNON	I just think you wear whatever suits you and if you can wear something that suits you and looks good then great bonus. But if you have to wear something because your feet might be slightly misshapen or twisted and won't go into a shoe then your disability and comfort's got to come first. 

MAT	I'm going to play crip cop. 

SHANNON	If you can look good... 

MAT	I'm playing crip cop so you're saying you can only wear barefoot if your feet look normal?

SHANNON	No I'm not saying 'normal' what's the definition of a normal foot?

LIZ	It is actually what you meant though. 

SHANNON	I've actually got a foot phobia...

LIZ	Wow!

SHANNON	... I can't stand feet, I hate feet. Feet anywhere near me freaks me out so I... 

LIZ	Is that because you can't feel yours?

SHANNON	No this is before my accident. 

LIZ	Oh wow!

SHANNON	I just hate feet. I hate my own feet, however, I do make sure that they look as good as they can with a bit of decent nail varnish. 

LIZ	Do you have a ring? 

SHANNON	Sorry? 

MAT	Steady on it's the BBC girls, come on. 

SHANNON	A ring on any of my toes? 

LIZ	Yes have you ever done that and done the jewellery thing?

SHANNON	No that's a bit bohemian and also if I had one that was too tight and it was on the toe and I couldn't feel it it could cut off the circulation and I could end up with a pressure sore. 

LIZ	Okay. 

SHANNON	Again medical. 

LIZ	I was thinking foot jewellery. 

SHANNON	But I'll go sandals, stilettos, the works 

MAT	I'm warning you now I'm going under the table... 

SHANNON	You're getting our feet out aren't you? 

MAT	... to have a quick look. No I'm not going to get my feet out. 

SHANNON	But I've got boots on. 

MAT	I'm going to have a look at yours. 

SHANNON	I've got boots on, you can't see them. 

MAT	Listeners, I'm under the table. 

LIZ	Oh no.

MAT	And all I'm describing a lovely pair of shapely NORMAL looking feet with BOOTS.

SHANNON	Is that a crime? Am I going to be arrested by robo crip now coming in going boom, boom. 

MAT	Boy you'd be terrified by that. 

SHANNON	 I would. 

MAT	How long have you been a model, Shannon? 

SHANNON	Since '94 so probably about 16 years now. 

MAT	And I can honestly say, because I can remember when you started, you look better and better every time I see you. 

SHANNON	Thank you. I wasn't really prepared for that compliment. Thank you.

MAT	No I'm not trying to get off with you. 

SHANNON	Oh!

MAT	I'm all right, thanks. So easy.

SHANNON	That's I guess like fine wine maturing with age and good living possibly. 

MAT	Yeah. You're a beautiful woman whereas you were a pretty girl before.

LIZ	Now it's all getting a bit weird. I feel a bit like a gooseberry in the middle. You've been on the floor, been in front of it it's all a bit strange. 

MAT	Beautiful disabled lady. 

LIZ	Shannon, do you think it's easier for disabled men or disabled women we were talking about this earlier. 

SHANNON	You see I've had this argument with some people as well because girlfriends of mine who are also wheelchair users, we've always said we reckon it's easier to be a disabled woman. 

LIZ	Okay. 

SHANNON	Because you haven't got to worry about that whole kind of machismo trying to be... 

MAT	That's what I was trying to say. 

SHANNON	... butch masculine man. And also I quite... because I'm quite fiercely independent and strong minded I like occasionally being able to give that up to somebody who I think is big enough and bold enough to control that, they can carry me upstairs – all those kind of things. Then obviously if you're a guy and you can't do that then I think maybe does that make you kind of feel psychologically somewhat diminished. Though when I've spoken to disabled guys they think it's worse for women because they reckon as guys you're less likely to want to take onboard a disabled woman and they think women are more caring, therefore, they'll go out with a disabled guy. 

LIZ	Yeah. 

SHANNON	 So I just think there's no way to agreeing it. 

MAT	Similar to my insertion previously yes it's a raging issue and I'm sure we'll hear a lot... 

SHANNON	But it's like that issue with... 

MAT	... from the listeners.

SHANNON	It's like is it better to acquire a disability or be born with...  

LIZ	It's one of them isn't it? 

SHANNON	... with a disability. 

LIZ	Ah no you've just stopped next month's discussion. Ah the producer's crying, he's weeping. And December it'll be blind or deaf, which do you want?

SHANNON	I'll come back in and do it again. 

MAT	It's a bit of a time for you at the moment isn't it, Shannon?

SHANNON	Yeah. 

MAT	Because you're not only doing the autumn range for Debenhams but you've also been in that How To Look Good Naked thing. 

SHANNON	I did yes. Well that's what kicked it all off. I did a couple of episode of How To Look Good Naked, they were trying to find a disabled model who they could then bring to high street stores, ask the high street stores who's willing to take a disabled model on and use them in a campaign, and Debenhams said yes. So that's where it all sprung from. 

MAT	Oh so one came from the other. 

SHANNON	Yes

MAT	How was that doing the Gok Wan show? 

SHANNON	It was really good fun. I didn't meet Gok until the very last episode. I'd been doing all the work with Natasha Wood and Nicki Fox who were brilliant fun. And we were like these three crazy blonds going round in wheelchairs just doing photo shoots, it was great. 

LIZ	Mat, you've done some modelling haven't you?

MAT	I did a little modelling for Alexander McQueen, rest in peace, a few years ago yeah. Didn't enjoy it.

SHANNON	You see I didn't get the McQueen gig. 

MAT	You should have got it. 

SHANNON	No apparently I didn't look disabled enough. 

LIZ	Wow but you did. Was it fun, did you enjoy it? 

MAT	Not really. 

LIZ	No?

MAT	No I remember I had dry lips at one point.

SHANNON	Didn't they give you any Vaseline for that?

MAT	No they didn't. 

SHANNON	Oh. 

LIZ	For other things. 

MAT	You'd have thought there would have been some in the studio though. 

SHANNON	But that's the old trick you put Vaseline on your lips and on your teeth and that means you can always smile on TV. 

MAT	I know that now! I know that now but then I didn't. I had dry lips because I was nervous and at one point I've stuck my my ill-equipped little flipper finger into my mouth to rub the spit round my lips so it would look moistened, sufficiently moistened and they went "Oh that's great love it, keep the finger in the mouth, sexy, sexy." And I was like I don't want to do this, this is awful. 

LIZ	One finger maybe but not a whole flipper, do you know what I mean?

MAT	Yes. 

SHANNON 	A mouthful, a bit much.

LIZ	That's something totally different. 

MAT	A mouthful's a bit much is it, Shannon? Okay well now we know. 

LIZ	Tell us about the campaign. So there you are, you're on billboards, you're in every store. 

SHANNON	Yeah it's been a bit weird. When they first did it in February it was just flagship stores to kind of test it and see what the response was. And then they received such positive response and there was so much press coverage that it then went into stores nationwide. I've only gone to see it once when I was asked by a film crew because I find it a little bit weird to stand next to a ten foot poster of myself. 

LIZ	And is this just the start do you think? Do you think that other shops now are going to go, "Actually it works, yes we want to be doing that" or...

MAT	We want a disabled model for our one. 

SHANNON	If I was... 

MAT	Maybe I could talk to Ozwald Boeteng.  

SHANNON	Yeah you see you could do little... 

MAT	It's never going to happen. 

SHANNON	You could do suits 

MAT	But the Principle range, the Principles range which is what it's called what happened about... 

SHANNON	That was the first one. 

MAT	Oh right. 

SHANNON	Well, Principles was a store that was on all the high streets and then it suffered some financial difficulties. And then Debenhams took control of it so that it's now only sold in Debenhams stores and it's designed... 

MAT	But is it all russet scarves and gloves?

SHANNON	No. 

MAT	And like oak leaves in the background. 

SHANNON	No russet isn't really on trend for this season, darling, it's camel and leopard print. 

LIZ	Oh not good for me I'm a winter. 

MAT	Are you a winter?

LIZ	Hm with my colour. Shannon, while you're here we were wondering if you would do a bit of a voiceover thing for us, a little bit of an advert for the trail

SHANNON	Can I do it in a kind of Mariella Frostrup kind of sexy, husky voice? 

MAT	You already have a sexy voice you don't have to try. 

LIZ	Yeah. You can see we've got three for you there. 

SHANNON	Okay. 

LIZ	And you can see which one. Like the top one we kind of like. 

MAT	Are you going to be director, Liz?

LIZ	Maybe the top one. Yeah. Okay. 

MAT	You be the director, I'll be the producer, hold on. 

SHANNON	Oh my God the first one. 

MAT	Commission her now. Go do it now Liz. 

LIZ	Okay. The first one and we want it after three, and two and one.

SHANNON	Hi, I'm the beautiful disabled model, Shannon Murray. If you want to be as lovely as me, even if you're in a wheelchair, then my advice is to listen regularly to the Ouch Talk Show. It'll help lift your self esteem and give you a clear, fresh, radiant skin just like mine. Rehabilitate your ears by going to bbc.co.uk/ouch. 

LIZ	The producer's going "Oh my God that's sounds amazing. She sounds like Joanna Lumley." 

MAT	That's going to keep me going for about a month that one. 

SHANNON	I can't believe I just said that. 

LIZ	You're very blushed now. 

SHANNON	I'm so blushed, oh my God. 

LIZ	You're not the only one in the studio by the looks of things that is. 

SHANNON	Oh my God. 

LIZ	Shannon, we're going to have to say goodbye to you. 

MAT	What a shame. 

SHANNON	I don't want to go I like it here. 

LIZ	You've been fantastic. Thank you for joining us. 

SHANNON	Thank you. 

LIZ	And I have a feeling you'll be back. 

MAT	Yeah. You can come back any time. 

SHANNON	If you guys need a holiday I'm perfectly happy to come and take over. 

LIZ	Absolutely. 

MAT	Okay cool, good to know. 

LIZ	The production team this month were Damon Rose, Dan Slipper and Tony Baker. But guess what, we are back in two weeks – yes look out for us on the website or in your iTunes podcast list. For now goodbye!

MAT 	Goodbye! 

SHANNON	Bye!

[Jingle playing out]