Ouch Talk Show #58 – November 2010
bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast

Presented by Mat Fraser and Liz Carr

The Ouch Podcast is a download from the BBC. For more information, and our terms of use, go to bbc.co.uk/ouch.

[Jingle 
O U C H spells Ouch]

MAT	Welcome all, it's November we hope you got through Halloween without being exorcised or taken back to the Zombie freak fayre by mistake. On the show today we'll be chatting with Garry Robson from a BIG international disability arts festival about to start in Liverpool. And Liz...

LIZ	Food yeah how accessible is it, it is just spaghetti and peas that cause the trouble or what. Plus later we'll be playing Vegetable, Vegetable, or Vegetable with a contestant in Japan. 

MAT	It will be a veritable tempura of questioning. And it's official, from now on the Talk Show comes out twice a month. TWICE A MONTH! Who knows by this time next year we might be doing them twice a day, Liz. 

[Jingle: From the BBC in London it's the Ouch Talk Show with Mat Fraser and Liz Carr]

LIZ	What foods do you avoid, Mat, come on there's got to be some with your little flippers.
 
MAT	Well yes well known and I think I've already documented on this very podcast thalidomide people, the short armed flipper variety and cheese fondue. Basically never serve a cheese fondue to thalidomide people like that unless you live near a burns unit in a hospital. 

LIZ	Is this because of the little arms and the closeness to fire? 

MAT	Well you have to lean... What do you do with a cheese fondue? There's a massive great pot of molten cheese in the middle and some presumably quite stale white bread that you're given because it's Monday and they didn't get any fresh in. And you lean forward and spoon the gunge onto the thing and then feed it to yourself. How are you going to do that a) with no thumbs; and b) with very small flippers and no arm length? You're dipping in like beak bird from one of those '70s cards. 

LIZ	How showbiz have you become talking about fondue I don't know. 

MAT	Does one... do you not have fondues? 

LIZ	Does everyone not have fondue? And how '70s of you. I don't know. Of course last time, last show we asked listeners what did you find inaccessible about food and you have written in, thank you for this. 

MAT	Oh my God look at this. 

LIZ	Quite a lot of people on our Facebook fan page, you can find that if you are writing in you'll find us on Facebook at Ouch BBC.

MAT	We've got one here from Alison Chapman. "It doesn't matter what it is I always manage to spill it down my front." I think as a disabled person who needs to eat you need to have a very good washing powder don't you? 

LIZ	Yes, no it's true. There's certain foods I mean... 

MAT	A plastic bib although unfashionable, quite useful.
 
LIZ	Yeah but would you, would you? 

MAT	Would it collect all the bits at the bottom and then you've got like another meal for later. 

LIZ	You know last month or the week before or whenever we are now, I've lost it with this every two weeks thing I don't know where we are, and we were talking about wearing shoes or not wearing shoes. And there's never... 

MAT	Yeah the wheelchair users should you wear shoes or not? 

LIZ	And I'm just wondering if wearing plastic bibs is in the same league as that? It's never going to be okay to wear a plastic bib. 

MAT	You've turned into a fashion fascist, Liz, since you've got a regular job, do you know that?

LIZ	I know and I'm only wearing a polo neck myself today, do you know what I mean? 

MAT	Nothing else. 

LIZ	I'm not looking that dapper. Not looking that dapper. 

MAT	I like the next one though. Go on. 

LIZ	Have you got... oh trauma doll - chips. I love this one. "One of the worst thing about beginning to use crutch for her" she says, "was the difficulty of eating a bag of chips while walking home." But now she's realised how to do it if she wears a messenger bag, so a bag across her chest, she puts the chips in there and eats them one handed. 

MAT	Right. Now go back to the bib, the bag or the big? 

LIZ	Oh the bag's fine. 

MAT	So having a bag, basically let's face it, like a horse bag, say you're delving around in your bolty bag, if you like, you've got a bucket bolty bag of food. 

LIZ	Your cripple nosebag. 

MAT	Yeah you've got a cripple nosebag in front of you, delving around in it "Oh what have I got here?" 

LIZ	That's really useful though.
 
MAT	You've got your mobile in there. 

LIZ	I get the same as a wheelie because if I'm driving my electric chair with my right hand, how do I eat because right's my dominant hand.
 
MAT	Well funny you should say that and going off on a slight tangent here, but what about John Kelly who I believed you interviewed the other day.... 

LIZ	That's right. 

MAT	... was in the show with me and Garry, the Ian Drury show. He uses his elbow, holds the mic stand with two hands and then uses his elbow to do the... Look at the massive joystick you've got. 

LIZ	I have got a big one. 

MAT	That is a huge joystick you have, Liz. 

LIZ	Thank you. 

MAT	I'm not saying anything at this point.

LIZ	I'm going to trump you in your... 

MAT	Something envy you know what I mean? Anyway go on.

LIZ	... in your fondue and that's what's difficult for you. 

MAT	Trump my fondue, raise my fondue...

LIZ	I'm going to raise your fondue with a bit of sushi. 

MAT	Ah. 

LIZ	I am and anything in actual fact, probably not just Sushi, that involves using chopsticks. Aren't they the bane... 

MAT	Here we are, finally we get to it. Let's talk about chopsticks people. 

LIZ	Do you just spear? Do you just use them as spears and cut out the middleman? 

MAT	So it's basically acting like one giant fork prong?

LIZ	Yeah. It's like going back to sort of Neanderthal man. Push the chopstick in, reach to mouth that's the way I use them.
 
MAT	So at this point I'm duty bound to tell you a very quick – don't worry, producer – story about when I agreed to meet Mary Duffy, my no armed friend, in London. "Where shall we meet?" "Oh let's meet in the Chinese restaurant" she said, not thinking what about the chopsticks. So I met here there on a Monday lunchtime, we were the only customers.
  
LIZ	Thank goodness really. 

MAT	The waiting staff at the Chinese restaurant were intrigued, it has to be said, intrigued by the prospect of a flipper person and a no armed person and they of course, I mean had obviously done some kind of disability awareness thing, proffered all the cutlery known to mankind at us, which I took availed myself of the knives, the forks, and the pusher – everything. And she was like, "No, no I'll be fine with chopsticks." There's an uncomfortable silence as both me and the waitress go, "Oh okay." She's ordered the sloppy soup thing with the noodles and everything. 

LIZ	You see I'd have stared, I'd have stared. 

MAT	I was staring. I could because I'm a friend of hers. 

LIZ	Of course. 

MAT	I was open mouthed staring as she deftly with her toes snapped the chopsticks apart, got one twixt fore toe and big toe and started to spoon this stuff into her. I looked up there were four heads coming round from the kitchen door, one on top of the other like in a cartoon, all looking with total amazement. I looked up the waitress was amazed, I was amazed, we were all amazed. Yes the armless lady – I'm going to cry, Liz – was using chopsticks to feed herself. 

LIZ	She wasn't poking her food. 

MAT	It was almost as moving as the armless pianist that just won China's Got Talent. 

LIZ	Really? 

MAT	Have you not seen that? 

LIZ	No. 

MAT	I suggest you look at it on You Tube. We've somewhat gone off the food theme. 

LIZ	No we have. Because I was thinking that it's not just that we go oh it's the real physical impairment stuff. We were so wrong when we put out the call to listeners because we got some fantastic emails from people talking about their food access difficulties. 

MAT	Read that next one, that's brilliant. 

LIZ	Charlotte who's just in France, don't know where more specific. Most inaccessible food – try eating rice or couscous when you have severe OCD which means you have to count everything you see. 

MAT	Potatoes for her then. Easier to count five isn't it than five thousand. 

LIZ	Man, how long would eating take? 

MAT	A long time if you had to count each couscous pellet. Mind you the digestion of your food would be a lot better. Because they do say eating slowly is good for you. It makes you healthy. 

LIZ	That's true. We haven't had any blind people write in.

MAT	I don't know but we've got our resident blindies... 

LIZ	We do have our resident... 

MAT	... why don't  we just ask Emma.

LIZ	Emma? 

MAT	Why doesn't Emma come in? 

LIZ	Emma wasn't here when we recorded the last show so we couldn't invite her in, but we're going to today. She's making her way blindly in. Someone's helping her obviously. She's not eating. 

MAT	I wouldn't ask her about potatoes or couscous by the way, being Irish. 

LIZ	Don't ask her about potatoes. 

MAT	Pretty obvious.

LIZ	Let's not make any assumptions. Hey Emma!

EMMA	Hello. 

MAT	Potatoes are totally equal, just so you know, Emma. 

LIZ	Yeah we love all potatoes. 

MAT	Left a bit. 

LIZ	She's trying to make her way... 

MAT	Oh here we go again. Left a bit. 

LIZ	That's lovely. 

MAT	Wow isn't it amazing how they can always find their way. 

LIZ	So come on, Emma, as a blind person what are your food access problems? 

EMMA	Well do you know what it's not so much the food but it's the stuff that goes with the food, so garnish. I don't like garnish. I've eaten more garnish than anyone I think I've ever met. 

MAT	Why I don't understand? 

LIZ	Well it's gets in the way. 

EMMA	Because it gets in the way and you don't know it's garnish and then you eat lots of parsley and random planty stuff. 

MAT	But that's good for you. 

EMMA	Yeah but it's not very tasty. 

MAT	Yes but you can't only eat the meat and the potatoes. You have to eat the little bits of lettuce that comes as a garnish. 

LIZ	No but a woman cannot live on parsley and lemon slice alone can she?

EMMA	Yeah exactly. The amount of lemon wedges I've stuck in my mouth, honestly!

LIZ	See. 

MAT	And therein lies a story. 

EMMA	And you know the other thing is stuff that's in or encasing food, so shells, bones all very difficult. 

LIZ	Such as prawny things. 

MAT	Cannelloni? 

EMMA	Cannelloni's not so bad. The old chestnut the spaghetti that's the difficult, you know, deceptively long or food with a very long end on it so you think you've got everything and you put it in your mouth and then you end up going [slurping noise] and it's a bit disgusting. 

MAT	Okay. So best and worst food for you in terms of access not flavour?  

EMMA	Best food - sandwiches. 

LIZ	Easy, self contained. 

MAT	You see this is the other thing. I think that dietary preferences and impairments have a lot in common. My friend, Philip Paxton, New Zealand comedian, has got middling Cerebral Palsy I suppose you'd say, he loves instant, frozen ready meals. He accepts that they're nutritionally lesser than scraped and peeled fresh veg but he's like, "I need to work I haven't got seven hours a day to prepare food." 

LIZ	So he's evolved. 

MAT	So his food diet requirements have evolved to access his impairment. Is the same with you?

EMMA	I wouldn't like to think so, I'm very foody, I love food, and no I don't think I'd settle but definitely out for a meal my blindness helps me choose my dish depending on who I'm with I guess. 

MAT	So first date scenario and I know you're happily whatevered but just imagine you're on a first date wanting to impress. There's a sighted person who's not that used to dining with blind people, little bit of nerves first date, first night what do you choose to eat, you can have anything you want, you're at Claridge's? 

EMMA	To be honest I think it would be something pretty much fork only. So like chicken curry or penne pasta with something. 

LIZ	Or sandwiches. 

EMMA	Something that I can... 

MAT	Or sandwiches. 

EMMA	Or sandwiches. 

MAT	They make very nice sandwiches at Claridge's. 

EMMA	And my starter would be something I could pick up probably, that would be socially acceptable to pick up. 

MAT	With the fingers in the mouth. 

EMMA	And I probably wouldn't have a dessert because that's just too difficult. Isn't that sad? 

MAT	I'm almost crying. 

EMMA	You asked me about my worst food – bony fish, you know fish with millions of little bones. 

LIZ	Anyone, Queen Mother, anyone isn't it? 

EMMA	Yeah. 

MAT	Isn't she dead, Liz? 

LIZ	She what?

MAT	The Queen Mother. 

LIZ	Isn't it because of the bone? 

MAT	Oh she died of a fishbone? 

LIZ	I can't remember now, it was a long time ago. Emma, now we've got you in here, the last time we asked about where we were in the iTunes chart, we're very excited, we asked listeners to download us more, spread the word, Emma, where are we this month? 

EMMA	Last check we were... 

LIZ	Yeah go on.

EMMA	One hundred...

LIZ	And?

EMMA	... and thirty two. 

MAT	Hey? 

LIZ	Hey!

MAT	Come on that's better than under a hundred... 

LIZ	Is that good? 

MAT	Brilliant, Liz. 

LIZ	I can't remember where were we the time before? 

MAT	There's only a hundred and thirty one people... 

EMMA	We're listed. 

LIZ	Is it good? 

EMMA	It's good. I think it could be better. 

LIZ	It could be better couldn't it? 

EMMA	It definitely could be better. Everyone should pass it onto their friends... 

LIZ	Come on listeners. 

EMMA	... and family and everyone they know. It would be really nice to get under the hundred. If we could do that we'd be really pleased. 

LIZ	That's what we need for the Christmas podcast if we can get under a hundred that's our aim. Listeners, help us get there, you know how to do it. Pass it on. 

MAT	Tell a friend, tell your parents, tell everyone you know. Be the nutter at the bus stop shouting about it. 

EMMA	Post it on your social networks. 

LIZ	Bother your parents about it, it doesn't matter whether they really listen, just get them to download it then we feature in the charts. 

MAT	[Crying and singing] If you're happy and you know it clap your hands. If you're happy and you know it clap your hands. 

LIZ	Mat's having a bad day. Sometimes he really lets his disability get him down. But I know how to make him feel better. Hey, Mat!

MAT	Yes. 

LIZ	See your ability not your disability. 

MAT	What? Oh I see. You're trying to use wordplay. 

LIZ	The Ouch Talk Show is dispatched twice a month from bbc.co.uk/ouch. It's not distasteful and isn't disastrous. 

MAT	Why are you doing this to me, Liz? 

LIZ	We're joined by disabled actor, writer, director, producer the multi talented what doesn't he do Garry Robson. 

GARRY	Thank you very much, Liz, a lovely introduction. 

LIZ	Yeah I didn't know what to exclude from that there's so many things Garry. Welcome. 

GARRY	Father, lover. 

LIZ	Really? 

GARRY	Oh occasionally. 

LIZ	Occasionally. 

MAT	Hopefully with different people. 

GARRY	I love fathers. 

MAT	Actually, Garry, we've been just talking about inaccessible food. I'd thought I'd run this very short listener email past you, because it's almost arty in its beauty and brevity and it's slightly weird, and I think you of anyone can handle the concept. It's from Box in Cardiff and she says, "I avoid all foods with a hint of purple, like beetroot and blueberries, as I have Synesthesia and purple is Monday. 

GARRY	Wow, I love that. 

LIZ	Isn't that beautiful.

GARRY	I love beetroot. And I have a major problem with that, I adore beetroot, I'd have beetroot on everything given half the chance. 

MAT	Pickled or non pickled? 

GARRY	Both. I just love them all. Beetroot is my vegetable, or is it a fruit I don't really know. 

MAT	It's a root veg I believe. 

GARRY	It's a root veg I kind of love it. 

LIZ	And what colour is Monday to you, Garry? 

GARRY	Monday to me at the moment is slightly grey. 

LIZ	Slightly grey. 

GARRY	It's been a hard weekend. 

MAT	Do you consider Synesthesia a disability or a creative outlet, Garry? 

GARRY	I see it as an art form potentially, Mat, I think it would be interesting to develop. I mean I know times are hard but I'd put in for a grant to develop that. 

MAT	And if anyone could get it, you could. 

GARRY	It would be absolutely fantastic. Well who knows. 

MAT	My personal hate foot is pistachio nuts. They're the most inaccessible thing I've ever known. 

LIZ	Is this because of the thumb thing? 

MAT	It's partly a thumb thing and I don't know what it is, yeah it probably is. Garry, what's yours? Interested to know. 

GARRY	What my inaccessible food? 

MAT	Impairment based inaccessible food. 

GARRY	God, I kind of eat everything but as I get older shaky hands I think anything I have to open is a problem at the moment really. Any little packets I don't like little packets. 

LIZ	Packets, bananas, cans. 

GARRY	Cans I seem to manage with I don't know why that is. 

LIZ	Oh funnily enough. Ever done any work around inaccessible food then, Gary? 

GARRY	I've never no. I could see a ballet appearing. 

MAT	With that one legged guy from China. 

GARRY	I love him. And there was the armless pianist you were pointing out a little earlier. 

MAT	That is a... 

GARRY	He could work. 

MAT	There's a gig and a half coming up, it's that musical about inaccessible foods, written by you, Garry, with you in it starring the one legged guy from the ballet, and the music played by the armless pianist. 

GARRY	That's a hit, Mat, this is just what the cultural Olympiad is looking for. 

MAT	Called Sushi. 

GARRY	Sushi. 

LIZ	Sing-a-long-a-Sushi I think. 

MAT	Sing-a-long-a-Sushi. 

GARRY	The Way of the Beetroot. 

LIZ	Seeing creative potential in pretty much everything then, Garry... 

GARRY	Absolutely. 

LIZ	... is your job and what you're doing at DaDaFest International that's coming up in November and December. 

GARRY	Yeah indeed. 

LIZ	 It is the most diverse programme or performances and disabled people and artists from all other the world. 

MAT	DaDaFest stands for Disability and Deaf Arts Festival. 

LIZ	Absolutely. 

MAT	It's been going for about ten years and what was it about three years ago, Garry, when you came onboard? 

GARRY	Yeah 2008, Mat, because Liverpool's capital of culture, they got a lot more money in and decided to go bigger in an international way. So every second year now it's an international festival and that's why I'm back in 2010 to direct this one. 

LIZ	Not getting too arty about it, you've got a bit of everything for all sorts by the looks of it. I mean you've got programming that relates to gay disabled people, older disabled people as well. But a lot of it what impressed me I think and we were talking about this earlier is that it's quite a funky programme as well it's got a lot of stuff that will hopefully attract younger people that's been excluded from a lot of festivals in the past. 

MAT	We see something in light of Krip Hop with LeRoi Moore, what is Krip Hop, who's involved and what's the show going to be, would you tell us please? 

GARRY	Yeah, sure. Krip Hop is Hip Hop... well Hip Hop tends to be rooted in where people are coming from. So like Dizzee Rascal when he first began the stuff about being a guy growing up in the East End now he's a wealthy man he makes it about going on holiday and stuff like that. And Krip Hop is similar. Krip Hop is made by deaf and disabled DJs throughout the world and it's Hip Hop that's coming from their own roots, from their own lives. So we've got people coming from all over; there's LeRoi Moore who's coming from the States, beautiful poet, beautiful rapper. We've got Ronnie Ronnie who's coming from Uganda, he's an African Krip Hop artist. He's actually done us a DaDa anthem which is fabulous, which is available. 

LIZ	Is it the theme tune of the festival... 

GARRY	Theme tune of the festival. 

LIZ	... pretty much? 

GARRY	Yeah which we're really excited about. 

MAT	Will that be available as a download? 

GARRY	Well we're working on that at the minute, Mat, it'll be either be available on disc or as a download at the festival. It's been used as a soundtrack for one of the BBC DaDa Vision films which I just got the other day, it's just been completed the first take on it and it's really great. 

LIZ	BBC DaDa Vision films what do you mean? 

GARRY	You know the big screens, the BBC big screens? 

LIZ	Okay yeah in different capital... 

MAT	Oh in public squares and things like that. 

GARRY	Yeah you've got it. We're commissioned two new pieces, two short films to go on the BBC big screens. And one of them is a piece that uses Ronnie Ronnie's Hip Hop track, and another is Simon McKeown who I think you both know, who's doing a wee film that involves Claire Cunningham. And they'll both be on the BBC big screens. 

LIZ	So when is it? Where is it? Howe can we find out more about DaDaFest, Garry? 

GARRY	Okay. Well it's in Liverpool and Scotland. And it's running from the 12th of November it starts in Scotland, 18th of November in Liverpool, running right through until the 3rd of December. And the best way to get information is the website, which is www.dadafest2010.co.uk or to ring 0151 707 1733.

LIZ	Oh and in such a great voice. 

MAT	Fantastic, Garry. 

LIZ	Oh I'll be ringing.

MAT	Oh yeah I'll ring just to listen to the voice. 

LIZ	Garry, thank you so much. 

GARRY	Thanks guys, it's been a pleasure. 

LIZ	Rob? 

ROB	What? 

LIZ	Don't you think disability is so misunderstood?

ROB	S--, sorry? 

LIZ	I was just saying, don't you think disability is so misunderstood. 

ROB	Dis a what-er-ty? 

LIZ	Disability. 

ROB	Oh sweet Jesus don't make me think about cripples.

MAT	bbc.co.uk/ouch demystifying disability.

[Jingle: Now it's time for Vegetable, Vegetable, or Vegetable ]

Yes it's our quiz where we guess what's wrong with the caller on the line. And today it's Grace in Osaka, Japan. 

LIZ	Hello, Grace. 

GRACE	Hello. 

LIZ	This is a long way away. How are you today? 

GRACE	I'm good. 

LIZ	Why have you done this? Why have you called us up to do this? 

GRACE	I'm from Japan TV

LIZ	Okay. 

MAT	Oh right. 

GRACE	I was working on internet. 

LIZ	So you know what we're about. So I was reading that you present a show over there called Shine On. 

MAT	Shine On. Let me try, let me try and pronunciation, Liz, here we go.  

LIZ	Okay go for it. 

MAT	I probably will get this wrong, Grace, but tell me... 

GRACE	Okay. 

MAT	Okay here we go your programme is called Warate-ekay-amo–ph Apparently not. 

LIZ	I guess that was good then. 

MAT	Okay I've got that wrong. Oops, did I just say something else apart from Shine On? 

LIZ	How would you say it, Grace? 

MAT	You say it for us. 

GRACE	[speaking Japanese]

LIZ	I think you were quite close. 

MAT	Close enough. No I probably said something really offensive. It wouldn't be the first time. 

LIZ	But it translates as it may be okay to laugh? 

GRACE	Okay. 

LIZ	I think that's what... 

GRACE	It means like you can laugh if you want kind of. 

MAT	So do you think that the Japanese population are ready to laugh about disability now? 

GRACE	Yeah I think. 

MAT	Okay. Now I notice because I'm a keen martial artist and I've been looking all my life for somebody with a similar impairment to me that I could have a full contact fight with, indeed if there was anyone in Japan that could do that, I could come to Japan and have the fight because it would be so interesting. Now you used to be a judo player I see and represented the United States. 

GRACE	Yes, yes, yes. 

MAT	Not Japan? 

GRACE	Not Japan. 

LIZ	Now how come? 

GRACE	Because my Mum is American. 

LIZ	Okay. So you got in. 

MAT	How did you do? 

GRACE	Yeah I have a... what? 

MAT	Were you a good judo kai? 

GRACE	I used to be a first nation. 

MAT	Wow!

GRACE	All American. 

LIZ	And, Grace, tell us then what's it like being a disabled person in Japan? 

MAT	Or a disabled woman in Japan.

GRACE	Oh yeah. For me I feel like it's more hard for me to live in Japan with the disabilities. 

MAT	Right. Harder than in the United States? 

GRACE	It was fine because people just make me laugh and it was like just a friend even though I was disability. 

LIZ	So how is it different in Japan, not as many friends or is the access bad, or what's different? 

GRACE	People just think that disability people they feel sorry about it. 

LIZ	So you get the pity? 

MAT	The pity and the charity. 

GRACE	Yes, yes. 

LIZ	Oh bless you.

GRACE	Yes, yes, yes it's like that, yeah. 

LIZ	It's funny isn't it. The world over that's how people see disabled people I think.

GRACE	Really? Is it in British too? 

LIZ	Oh yes. 

MAT	Very much. But we're trying to change that here at the Ouch podcast and I'm sensing, Grace, that your television programme is trying to change that as well. Is that true? 

GRACE	Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

LIZ	So are you... 

MAT	We're like cousins. 

GRACE	Yeah it's like cousins. 

LIZ	Are you ready for this game then, Grace, are you ready for Vegetable, Vegetable, or Vegetable? 

GRACE	Yes I'm ready. 

LIZ	What have we called it, Mat? Didn't we have Japanese vegetables? 

MAT	We did. Now what was it, hold on I've got it. 

LIZ	We've had, hold on. 

MAT	We had bean curd, Wasabi and Tempura. 

LIZ	That's our version. 

MAT	Thanks for politely laughing. I know that wasn't very funny. 

LIZ	We know that tempura is just deep fried but we couldn't think of anything else. 

GRACE	Tempura.

LIZ	That's it. 

MAT	Tempura. 

GRACE	Tempura.

LIZ	You'll be practically fluent by the end of this. 

MAT	I know. I'm going to move to Japan. 

LIZ	Absolutely. Right are you ready. Read the rules. 

MAT	Okay, here we go. Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable is a clever disability interpretation of the parlour game Animal, Vegetable or Mineral. In the game the two hosts of the Ouch Talk Show have 90 seconds to guess what is wrong with the disabled caller on the line by asking a series of fiendishly intelligent questions. The caller must answer only ‘yes’ or ‘no’. It is both classic and therapeutic.

LIZ	To take part in this intrusive and unpleasant game the rules clearly state you have to be disabled. Grace, are you disabled?

GRACE	Yes I'm disabled. 

MAT	Right. There are 90 seconds on the clock, Grace, and your time starts NOW!

LIZ	Grace, do you have legs? 

GRACE	Yes.

MAT	You live in the birthplace of Karate, Osaka, can you wax on or wax off? 

GRACE	No. 

LIZ	Can you use a pair of chopsticks? 

GRACE	No.

MAT	Can you giggle subserviently? 

GRACE	No.

LIZ	Are you a geisha? 

GRACE	No.

MAT	When you were born did your parents try to kill you or did that happen later in life? 

GRACE	Later.

LIZ	Is your disability a result of failed hara-kiri? 

GRACE	No. 

MAT	Can you talk? Oh of course you can sorry. 

GRACE	Yes, yes, yes. 

MAT	Can you hold a fork? 

LIZ	She can't hold chopsticks.

MAT	She might be able to hold a fork though. 

LIZ	Oh true. 

GRACE	No. 

MAT	Have you got any arms? 

GRACE	What? 

MAT	Do you have arms? 

GRACE	Yes. 

LIZ	Do you have all your fingers, do you have ten fingers? 

GRACE	Yes I have. 

MAT	Do you have... God can you... do you have elbows? 

GRACE	Yes I have. 

LIZ	If I was to stick pins in you would you feel it? 

GRACE	No. 

MAT	Okay, oh my God. 

GRACE	You're very good at fishing. 

MAT	This is tough. Hold on let's just go for the impairments. Have you got MS? 

LIZ	Are you paralysed? 

GRACE	Oohhh!

LIZ	Paralysed from... 

MAT	We've lost again. 

LIZ	... from the neck down? 

MAT	Last question. Are you a tetraplegic?

LIZ	Quadriplegic?

GRACE	Yes. Yes, yes. 

LIZ	Is that the thing?

MAT	What? 

LIZ	Is that it? 

MAT	Are you tetraplegic? 

GRACE	No, no, no. I'm not only the quadriplegic. 

LIZ	Ah ha Quadriplegic. 

MAT	You're not quadriplegic? 

LIZ	No. 

MAT	You've got MS?

GRACE	No I... what? 

MAT	Have you got Multiple Sclerosis? 

GRACE	Yes, yes. How did you know it? 

MAT	It's innate in us. 

LIZ	We're just so good at our game. 

MAT	We're the professionals, baby. 

GRACE	Oh. 

MAT	We won, we won! 

LIZ	We won! Give me a high five. 

MAT	I can give you a high four but try not to break... 

LIZ	Yeah try... that's impressive. High five. 

GRACE	Amazing. I thought you couldn't win.

MAT	Hold on, I'm just getting a call from the producer here we didn't win in the time so apparently we've lost. 

GRACE	Oh okay. But you were...

MAT	So you win. 

LIZ	So you win and we don't like you now. 

MAT	You win, Grace. 

LIZ	That's fine. But you know, Grace, that it does mean that you get an Ouch mug. 

MAT	Even though it's not a prize because this wasn't a competition, it's merely a gift from us to you our lovely Japanese cousin in disability fervour. 

GRACE	Thank you. 

LIZ	So, Grace, when people find out that you've got MS what kind of questions do you get asked at home?  

GRACE	It's not popular in Japan, MS. 

LIZ	So it's quite rare, you're quite unique. 

GRACE	Yes, yes. So people just ask what's... 

MAT	What is it? 

GRACE	... the disease... yeah. I think it's just... yeah. 

MAT	Okay. So... 

GRACE	Because it's just white person gets it. 

LIZ	I didn't know that. 

MAT	Hold on a minute. Oh contentious opinion, we're not allowed to say that on the BBC but I want to. So you're saying, Grace, that you think mostly it's only white people that get multiple sclerosis?  

GRACE	Yes. 

MAT	That's a very interesting... no, no, no hear us out. 

LIZ	Cultural observation. 

MAT	Because culturally as all know why people largely don't get sickle cell anaemia so it's a possibility that it could be dietary or even racially motivated. 

LIZ	We thought we were just a lightweight disability radio show, but we're really... 

MAT	Apparently not. 

LIZ	... we've got some cutting edge medical research in here today. And if you were to give MS a mark out of ten what would you give it? How good is it, how cool is it?

MAT	From one to ten. 

GRACE	Ten. 

LIZ	Of course. 

MAT	Oh right. 

LIZ	I like that. 

MAT	People always give their own impairment high marks don't they? 

LIZ	Grace... 

MAT	Grace it's been wonderful talking to you. We've got some of your people filming us I think we're going to be on your television show. Are we allowed to say hello to your viewers please. 

GRACE	Yeah. 

MAT	Okay, shall we say this one's for the people at Shine On. 

LIZ	Arigato!

MAT	Yeah, Shine On. 

GRACE	Arigato. 

LIZ	Arigoto!

MAT	Konnichiha! And goodbye, thank you very much. And we love Shine On! 

LIZ	Thank you, Grace. 

GRACE	Sayounara!

MAT	Sayounara! 

GRACE	Sayounara. 

MAT	Does that mean goodbye?

LIZ	Yeah. That means goodbye. That's the end of the show. The production team were Damon Rose, Emma Tracey, Dan Slipper and Vicky Oswalds. 

MAT	As ever you can email us on Ouch@bbc.co.uk if you want to be an unfortunate contestant in our vegetable quiz and it's the same address for everything else too. 

LIZ	We're back in two weeks with Rob Crossan and learnie band The Fish Police. Until then... 

LIZ AND MAT	Goodbye!